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TFL new ULEZ - London, TFL vehicle database for Euro rating inaccurate
Colin_S
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 12:22
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As some of you may be aware, TFL is introducing a new ULEZ (ultra low emission zone) for all vehicles next year. At it's introduction it will cover the same area as the current congestion zone but operate 24/7 and any vehicles that are due to pay the charge will be paying this on top of any congestion charge.

As a small business we run a number of vans and have recently upgraded 3 with Euro 6 compliant vehicles however upon checking these on TFL's website, only 1 came up as being Euro 6 compliant. I contacted TFL and they said we would need to produced Certificates of Conformity for the others or pay the ULEZ charge (£12.50 a day). Checking with the manufacturer, who confirmed the vans are indeed Euro 6, we were advised certificates cost £120 each. Checking on 2 independent web sites, one of which was HPI, both vans come up as Euro 6, so where on earth are TFL getting there data from?

Surely TFL, a Government department, has access to DVLA data so why can they not easily identify compliant vehicles or are they simply working on the date of registration. The vans in question are on 16 plates and Euro 6 conformity date was September 2016.

Anyway, I've written back to TFL asking them similar questions and will raise the issue with the Mayor of London if they cannot sort it out satisfactorily and without additional cost to our business.

Anyone else running vehicles into London would be well advised to run it through TFL's checker sooner rather than later - https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-...rm-checker-ulez

HPI's (accurate) tool - https://www.hpi.co.uk/content/diesel-news-t...andard-checker/
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post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 12:22
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post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 21:22
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In fact the ULEZ is going to cover the whole of Inner London, bounded by the North & South circular roads. This is due to come in in 2021 (I think)

I recently bought a newer car. When I was looking for cars, the smaller engine 1.6 diesel registered in 2016 was not compliant, whereas the 2014 2.0l diesel engine was.

So I printed off the compliance checker bit from TFL and have kept it. What happens if TFL decide that the car is non compliant?

I understood that Euro 6 came in in 2015.

Of course if Shaun Bailey The Conservative Candidate for Mayor wins, the Inner London ULEZ would be scrapped.
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cp8759
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 21:25
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That's interesting, cos my 11 year old petrol car is also complaint.


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nigelbb
post Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 08:21
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 22:25) *
That's interesting, cos my 11 year old petrol car is also complaint.

Unsurprisingly my 17 year old 4.6L V8 petrol Range Rover is not although it is very unlikely that I would drive it in London anyway.


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jay.dee
post Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 19:39
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It's daft, I raised this same issue on another forum 5 months back, especially as Birmingham will be introducing one, and others such Leeds are considering it. My 1 year old car with dateless reg and being Euro 6 on its specifications was then showing as non-compliant in London 6 months back. The checker didn't show the full gamut of info that is on the V5 either, which does state it is Euro 6. However I reran the online check today for London and it's now showing the car as exempt. Really need to get their act together.
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Fredd
post Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 20:24
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QUOTE (jay.dee @ Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 19:39) *
Really need to get their act together.

You make it sound as if their motive is to be fair, rather than banish as many personal vehicles as possible and raise some extra cash on the side.


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666
post Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 21:22
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QUOTE (Korting @ Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 21:22) *
Of course if Shaun Bailey The Conservative Candidate for Mayor wins, the Inner London ULEZ would be scrapped.

Of course it would. We have a politician’s word for it.
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post Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 08:51
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QUOTE (666 @ Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 21:22) *
QUOTE (Korting @ Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 21:22) *
Of course if Shaun Bailey The Conservative Candidate for Mayor wins, the Inner London ULEZ would be scrapped.

Of course it would. We have a politician’s word for it.


Boris Johnson when he was the candidate for Mayor said he would scrap the western section of the congestion charge and he did, straight after he was elected.

As far as the ULEZ is concerned, all diesel vehicles have to be Euro 6 compliant, all Petrol vehicles have to be Euro 4 and above compliant.
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DancingDad
post Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 10:37
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QUOTE (jay.dee @ Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 19:39) *
It's daft, I raised this same issue on another forum 5 months back, especially as Birmingham will be introducing one, …………..



Which is ridiculous.
The banned area will basically be city centre, which is mainly shops, offices and some manufacturing.
Banned traffic will be forced onto the inner city ring.
Which is already jammed most days and goes through mainly residential areas.
Results, lower emissions in centre and council will claim a success.
Higher emissions in areas where people live, 24/7 and council will keep stum on it.
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SatNavSam
post Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 12:37
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 10:37) *
QUOTE (jay.dee @ Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 19:39) *
It's daft, I raised this same issue on another forum 5 months back, especially as Birmingham will be introducing one, …………..



Which is ridiculous.
The banned area will basically be city centre, which is mainly shops, offices and some manufacturing.
Banned traffic will be forced onto the inner city ring.
Which is already jammed most days and goes through mainly residential areas.
Results, lower emissions in centre and council will claim a success.
Higher emissions in areas where people live, 24/7 and council will keep stum on it.


So who suggested politics (or politicians) was sensible?


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Colin_S
post Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 14:22
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 21:25) *
That's interesting, cos my 11 year old petrol car is also complaint.


Petrol cars need to meet a different standard - Euro 4 - which came into force back in 2005 unlike Euro 6 which didn't come into force until September 2016 so a serious financial headache for businesses running such vans (we have 12 and tend to buy outright late used vehicles rather than lease new). I'm guessing that TFL just look at the registration number and, in the case of large vans, simply look for a 66 plate or newer. We even sent copies of the V5C's for all 3 vehicles in question which clearly showed the same emission figures but these were ignored.

Current ULEZ requirements ifted from TFL website -

The ULEZ standards are:

Euro 3 for motorcycles, mopeds, motorised tricycles and quadricycles (L category)
Euro 4 (NOx) for petrol cars, vans, minibuses and other specialist vehicles
Euro 6 (NOx and PM) for diesel cars, vans and minibuses and other specialist vehicles
Euro VI (NOx and PM) for lorries, buses and coaches and other specialist heavy vehicles (NOx and PM)

Euro 3 became mandatory for all new motorcycles in 2007

Euro 4 became mandatory for all new cars in 2005 and light vans in 2006

Euro 6 became mandatory for all new heavy duty engines for goods vehicles and buses from January 2014, September 2015 for cars and light vans, and September 2016 for larger vans up to and including 3.5 tonnes gross vehicle weight.
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Enceladus
post Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 19:06
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What make, model and engine size are the two vans that don't show as Euro 6? And were they new when yuo bought them? Perhaps pre-registered?

That HPI database linked above is not accurate. It's likely using the date of first registration to determine the compliance band. IE whether or not the vehicle was first registered on or after the date a given emission standard became mandatory. Trouble is that some vehicles were compliant several years prior to the mandatory date post which a mon=compliant vehicle could not be sold as new. After all who would make vehicles that might hang around for maybe 6-12 months and then couldn't be legally sold.
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post Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 22:44
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QUOTE (SatNavSam @ Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 12:37) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 10:37) *
QUOTE (jay.dee @ Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 19:39) *
It's daft, I raised this same issue on another forum 5 months back, especially as Birmingham will be introducing one, …………..



Which is ridiculous.
The banned area will basically be city centre, which is mainly shops, offices and some manufacturing.
Banned traffic will be forced onto the inner city ring.
Which is already jammed most days and goes through mainly residential areas.
Results, lower emissions in centre and council will claim a success.
Higher emissions in areas where people live, 24/7 and council will keep stum on it.


So who suggested politics (or politicians) was sensible?


Its not so much the politicians, its the civil servants and Council offers who tend to have half a brain between them.
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Colin_S
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 08:12
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QUOTE (Enceladus @ Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 19:06) *
What make, model and engine size are the two vans that don't show as Euro 6? And were they new when yuo bought them? Perhaps pre-registered?

That HPI database linked above is not accurate. It's likely using the date of first registration to determine the compliance band. IE whether or not the vehicle was first registered on or after the date a given emission standard became mandatory. Trouble is that some vehicles were compliant several years prior to the mandatory date post which a mon=compliant vehicle could not be sold as new. After all who would make vehicles that might hang around for maybe 6-12 months and then couldn't be legally sold.


The vans are 100% Euro 6. I have an email from Mercedes to confirm this. The date by which all newly registered large vans had to comply was September 2016 and whlst they were registered before that date, Mercedes had met the requirements well in advance of the cut off date.

If the HPI site uses the reg. date, why is it correctly showing these as Euro 6 compliant?

Sadly there's no simple box on the V5C that states in plain English, what category the vehciles fall in. That would be too simple....
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notmeatloaf
post Sat, 24 Nov 2018 - 19:10
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They are presumably pulling data from the DVLA so you simply need to look under D2 to see if the Euro standard is there or otherwise look under the V1 -5 section and see if the emissions meet the standard. As far as I am aware the Euro standard isn't like a 10 metre swimming certificate, it meets it solely by virtue of meeting the emissions standards. As such, a copy of the V5C should suffice.

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Colin_S
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 10:10
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sat, 24 Nov 2018 - 19:10) *
They are presumably pulling data from the DVLA so you simply need to look under D2 to see if the Euro standard is there or otherwise look under the V1 -5 section and see if the emissions meet the standard. As far as I am aware the Euro standard isn't like a 10 metre swimming certificate, it meets it solely by virtue of meeting the emissions standards. As such, a copy of the V5C should suffice.


Not so sure they are using DVLA data as the 16 plate vehicles are identical to the 66 plate one other than registration date so I think they are using the reg date and nothing else.
There is no reference to the Euro Standard in D.2.
Under V - Exhaust emissions they all have the same data:
V.1 0.318
V.2 Blank
V.3 0.050
V.4 0.124
V.5 1.380

Mercedes Sprinter 3.5 tonne vans BTW.

This post has been edited by Colin_S: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 10:10
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Colin_S
post Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 10:38
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Following another email to TFL I have received a response which includes blaming Mercedes for the way they record their test results.

QUOTE
We are aware of an issue regarding how manufacturers and specifically Mercedes have recorded the Particulate Matter
(PM) and Nitrogen Oxides (NOx) levels for their vehicles and then reported to the DVLA. This means that the values
which have been measured in one manner, i.e. mg per km are then not translated into the measure in use by
the DVLA (g/km). This is an issue between the DVLA and the dealerships when registering a vehicle.


I've reminded them that they have copies of 3 V5C's that all contain exactly the same data including the make, model and type of vehicle to confirm all 3, and not just 1, meet the ULEZ Euro 6 diesel requirement.

As things stand their system for checking vehicle status is simply not fit for purpose and I predict this forum is going to get mighty busy early next year....
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Colin_S
post Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 09:46
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Just to update this thread I emailed TFL and asked them to look closely at the V5C's for all 3 vehicles and particularly the identical emission data and toconfirm that the two 16 plate vans did meet the requirements of Euro 6 as they were identical to the 66 plate van which their system accepts as Euro 6.

They replied accepting that ONE of the 16 plates did indeed meet the requirements and their data base would be updated accordingly but totally disregarded the second van. This was rectified by a further exchange of emails.

Hard work, but we finally got there.
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post Wed, 19 Dec 2018 - 09:20
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I recently bought a S/H Volvo V70, 64 plate. It is Euro 6 compliant according to TFL. I've printed off a copy in case they change their minds.

Surely if an engine is Euro 6, it has to be certified as such by a Government Body such as VOSA. That would then apply to all engines manufactured from the time of certification, so surely a manufacturers letter stating conformity should be enough to Satisfy TFL.

I can see PATAS becoming very busy next year, even more so when the zone extends to 'Inner London'.

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The Rookie
post Wed, 19 Dec 2018 - 09:39
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QUOTE (Korting @ Wed, 19 Dec 2018 - 09:20) *
Surely if an engine is Euro 6, it has to be certified as such by a Government Body such as VOSA.

It is certified (Homologated, Type approved) using a certification agency, VOSA is not one of them!

Examples would be TUV (German), The VCA (UK), ATEEL (Dutch), DEKRA (German). They work with a manufacturer until all the requirements (crash, protuberances, braking, emissions etc.etc.) are met and then submit the paperwork to the EU authorities for ratification to then be approved for pan European sale.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 - 09:39


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