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Parking ticket - signage not visible from car, Signage at furthest end of cul de sac!
HNorm
post Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 16:05
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Hi,

I just parked my car in a parking bay in a cul de sac. I looked around and there was no signage whatsoever, so I just left it there. When I returned I had a £55/£110 ticket!

The road was a cul de sac and I had pulled into the first available part of the long parking bay nearest to the entrance to the cul de sac. When I walked right to the other end of the long bay, there was a sign as far as it was possible to go from the entrance to the cul de sac, but still just about still in the parking bay, saying you can't park there.

The sign was in no way visible from my car and was right at the wrong end of the cul de sac, as far from the entrance that it was possible to be. Can I appeal this?

Many thanks!
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post Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 16:05
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 16:15
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If the signage is inadequate yes, but we can't tell what your chances would be without evidence.

post the PCN council photos and a GSV


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HNorm
post Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 16:23
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Hi, many thanks for your prompt response. I have the PCN here, but there are no council photos. I was going to take some pics at the scene but it is impossible to emphasise the distance from the car to the sign (as they are so far apart!) so I didn't. Do I just get pic of the sign? Where do a GSV from please? Ta!

This post has been edited by HNorm: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 16:24
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pcnobjection
post Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 17:09
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GSV = Google Street View

Google Maps

Find the street and zoom in as far as you can go. Should be able to view the signs but
they may not be as they were when you parked.
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HNorm
post Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 17:22
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Attached Image


Thanks! Here you go. Google Street View. There is no signage visible at all in the box. Some on the other side of the road, but none in my box. The sign was right down the other end of the street as far as you can see, just past the telegraph pole:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/4+Hinds...33;4d-0.0521238

This post has been edited by HNorm: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 17:32
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John U.K.
post Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 17:23
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QUOTE
but there are no council photos


Keeping checking Council site - usually takes 24-48 hours for them to uplad photos.
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HNorm
post Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 10:26
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[attachment=59481:2.jpg][attachment=59479:4.jpg][attachment=59477:1.jpg][attachm
ent=59482:5.jpg]

Hi, images now added. Please note, no images of my car and the sign in the same pic! That's because they were nowhere near each other.

This post has been edited by HNorm: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 10:25
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peterguk
post Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 10:31
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QUOTE (HNorm @ Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 10:26) *
That's because they were nowhere near each other.

How far apart were your car and the time plate?


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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 10:40
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paragraph 7.50 page 69 here

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/go...-chapter-03.pdf


The signs should be no more than 30 metres apart and no more than 15 metres from the start of the bay. so I would say you have a good argument that the signage is inadequate.


The photos show nothing in context


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Neil B
post Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 10:44
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I make it circa 42m


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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HNorm
post Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 10:45
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Thanks for your responses. If you look here, the sign was all the way down the end of the cul de sac, past the telegraph pole you can see on the right:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/4+Hinds...33;4d-0.0521238
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 10:58
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QUOTE (HNorm @ Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 10:45) *
Thanks for your responses. If you look here, the sign was all the way down the end of the cul de sac, past the telegraph pole you can see on the right:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/4+Hinds...33;4d-0.0521238

yep seen it only one sign at the far end of a bay approximately 50 metres long.


dear Mr Parking

I challenge the issuance of PCN number xxxxxxxxxx on the grounds that no contravention occurred. This comes about because the signage is inadequate to inform the motorist of the restriction. I would refer you to paragraph 7.50 of the traffic signs manual chapter 3. A sign should be placed no more than 15 metres from the start of the bay and then at no more than 30 metre intervals. This is not the case in this instance. I would now refer you to The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 regulation 18. It cannot be said that the signage in situ at this location complies. therefore a contravention did not occur and I look forward to confirmation that this PCN has been cancelled



This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 10:59


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HNorm
post Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 11:01
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Thanks so much for your help! I really think this would be bad enough on a 'normal' road - but the fact that they have just hidden the signage down the wrong end of a cul de sac is just ridiculous! (I was going to say 'unbelievable'... but sadly it's all too believable!)
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 11:08
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QUOTE (HNorm @ Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 11:01) *
Thanks so much for your help! I really think this would be bad enough on a 'normal' road - but the fact that they have just hidden the signage down the wrong end of a cul de sac is just ridiculous! (I was going to say 'unbelievable'... but sadly it's all too believable!)


Wait til you see their response if you want unbelievable


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hcandersen
post Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 11:32
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Right, left, right, left...

IMO you cannot just dive straight in with what is virtually a lecture on the law. Start off with you.

As can be seen in the council's photos, I parked approx. 3 car lengths into the parking place which runs continuously for a distance of approx. ** metres from numbers *** to ****. I was parked o/s no. *.

I looked for a traffic sign in the vicinity, venturing as far as no. *, but did not see one. I therefore reasonably assumed that no parking restrictions applied.

On my return and upon finding the PCN I still could not see a sign for residents parking.

I have since seen the council's photos which show a solitary traffic sign o/s no.** i.e. at the furthest extent from the other end of the parking place and some ** metres from my car.

I believe that this signage is inadequate as it does not comply with **** and therefore the PCN must be cancelled.

If the authority do not cancel, then given the de facto position of the only traffic sign they must explain with justification why they believe that the display of a single traffic sign *** metres from the beginning of the area it purports to restrict is compliant. It would not be satisfactory to simply explain why the CEO issued the PCN(just carrying out orders) as this is not in dispute i.e. I was parked in a parking place regulated by order. The point at issue is the council's failure to sign this as required by law and the consequence of the failure in this case i.e. the penalty may not be enforced.

IMO, you must get them to justify their position in detail. This has three potential benefits:
They'll see reason and cancel;
They'll ignore and commit a procedural impropriety;
They'll provide a lame defence which you could attack at the formal reps stage.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 11:34
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 12:35
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 11:32) *
Right, left, right, left...

IMO you cannot just dive straight in with what is virtually a lecture on the law. Start off with you.

As can be seen in the council's photos, I parked approx. 3 car lengths into the parking place which runs continuously for a distance of approx. ** metres from numbers *** to ****. I was parked o/s no. *.

I looked for a traffic sign in the vicinity, venturing as far as no. *, but did not see one. I therefore reasonably assumed that no parking restrictions applied.

On my return and upon finding the PCN I still could not see a sign for residents parking.

I have since seen the council's photos which show a solitary traffic sign o/s no.** i.e. at the furthest extent from the other end of the parking place and some ** metres from my car.

I believe that this signage is inadequate as it does not comply with **** and therefore the PCN must be cancelled.

If the authority do not cancel, then given the de facto position of the only traffic sign they must explain with justification why they believe that the display of a single traffic sign *** metres from the beginning of the area it purports to restrict is compliant. It would not be satisfactory to simply explain why the CEO issued the PCN(just carrying out orders) as this is not in dispute i.e. I was parked in a parking place regulated by order. The point at issue is the council's failure to sign this as required by law and the consequence of the failure in this case i.e. the penalty may not be enforced.

IMO, you must get them to justify their position in detail. This has three potential benefits:
They'll see reason and cancel;
They'll ignore and commit a procedural impropriety;
They'll provide a lame defence which you could attack at the formal reps stage.


I have no objection to your tack

edit

Sorry that sounds a bit pompous on its own. I take a different approach. we see about 99% of informal challenges rejected, with a legalistic type challenge I have used the council will most likely tell you why they gave a PCN and ignore the points made, because the don't understand them or can't be bothered checking. but I see nothing wrong with the different approach suggested by HCA

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 13:35


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HNorm
post Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 18:31
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Okay, so as you predicted, the response from the council isn't great and I got rejected. Only just read it but my main points are he has just said 'no, the signage is sufficient' - but totally ignored the fact that they don't comply with the 15m from entrance rule.

Also, apparently a white box going onto a pavement is sufficient to say don't park here. I park on these all the time in London. They mean 'park up on the pavement inside the box in this narrow street'! What a total lie!

This post has been edited by HNorm: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 18:36
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 18:40
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We need to see the rejection


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HNorm
post Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 18:50
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[attachment=59798:IMG_E1103_25.jpg]

Sorry, took a little longer than anticipated to resize!

In my opinion they haven't done this.

"If the authority do not cancel, then given the de facto position of the only traffic sign they must explain with justification why they believe that the display of a single traffic sign *** metres from the beginning of the area it purports to restrict is compliant."

They've just ignored that whole issue and said "the signage is okay".
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cp8759
post Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 19:53
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Looks like failure to consider, I would wait for the NtO.


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