Parking ticket - signage not visible from car, Signage at furthest end of cul de sac! |
Parking ticket - signage not visible from car, Signage at furthest end of cul de sac! |
Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 16:05
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 55 Joined: 2 Sep 2015 Member No.: 79,170 |
Hi,
I just parked my car in a parking bay in a cul de sac. I looked around and there was no signage whatsoever, so I just left it there. When I returned I had a £55/£110 ticket! The road was a cul de sac and I had pulled into the first available part of the long parking bay nearest to the entrance to the cul de sac. When I walked right to the other end of the long bay, there was a sign as far as it was possible to go from the entrance to the cul de sac, but still just about still in the parking bay, saying you can't park there. The sign was in no way visible from my car and was right at the wrong end of the cul de sac, as far from the entrance that it was possible to be. Can I appeal this? Many thanks! |
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Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 16:05
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Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 16:15
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
If the signage is inadequate yes, but we can't tell what your chances would be without evidence.
post the PCN council photos and a GSV -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 16:23
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 55 Joined: 2 Sep 2015 Member No.: 79,170 |
Hi, many thanks for your prompt response. I have the PCN here, but there are no council photos. I was going to take some pics at the scene but it is impossible to emphasise the distance from the car to the sign (as they are so far apart!) so I didn't. Do I just get pic of the sign? Where do a GSV from please? Ta!
This post has been edited by HNorm: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 16:24 |
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Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 17:09
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28 Joined: 4 Nov 2018 Member No.: 100,769 |
GSV = Google Street View
Google Maps Find the street and zoom in as far as you can go. Should be able to view the signs but they may not be as they were when you parked. |
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Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 17:22
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 55 Joined: 2 Sep 2015 Member No.: 79,170 |
Thanks! Here you go. Google Street View. There is no signage visible at all in the box. Some on the other side of the road, but none in my box. The sign was right down the other end of the street as far as you can see, just past the telegraph pole: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/4+Hinds...33;4d-0.0521238 This post has been edited by HNorm: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 17:32 |
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Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 17:23
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,308 Joined: 9 May 2014 Member No.: 70,515 |
QUOTE but there are no council photos Keeping checking Council site - usually takes 24-48 hours for them to uplad photos. |
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Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 10:26
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 55 Joined: 2 Sep 2015 Member No.: 79,170 |
[attachment=59481:2.jpg][attachment=59479:4.jpg][attachment=59477:1.jpg][attachm
ent=59482:5.jpg] Hi, images now added. Please note, no images of my car and the sign in the same pic! That's because they were nowhere near each other. This post has been edited by HNorm: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 10:25 |
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Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 10:31
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13,735 Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Member No.: 14,720 |
That's because they were nowhere near each other. How far apart were your car and the time plate? -------------------- |
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Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 10:40
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
paragraph 7.50 page 69 here
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/go...-chapter-03.pdf The signs should be no more than 30 metres apart and no more than 15 metres from the start of the bay. so I would say you have a good argument that the signage is inadequate. The photos show nothing in context -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 10:44
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,268 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
I make it circa 42m
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Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 10:45
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 55 Joined: 2 Sep 2015 Member No.: 79,170 |
Thanks for your responses. If you look here, the sign was all the way down the end of the cul de sac, past the telegraph pole you can see on the right:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/4+Hinds...33;4d-0.0521238 |
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Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 10:58
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Thanks for your responses. If you look here, the sign was all the way down the end of the cul de sac, past the telegraph pole you can see on the right: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/4+Hinds...33;4d-0.0521238 yep seen it only one sign at the far end of a bay approximately 50 metres long. dear Mr Parking I challenge the issuance of PCN number xxxxxxxxxx on the grounds that no contravention occurred. This comes about because the signage is inadequate to inform the motorist of the restriction. I would refer you to paragraph 7.50 of the traffic signs manual chapter 3. A sign should be placed no more than 15 metres from the start of the bay and then at no more than 30 metre intervals. This is not the case in this instance. I would now refer you to The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 regulation 18. It cannot be said that the signage in situ at this location complies. therefore a contravention did not occur and I look forward to confirmation that this PCN has been cancelled This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 10:59 -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 11:01
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 55 Joined: 2 Sep 2015 Member No.: 79,170 |
Thanks so much for your help! I really think this would be bad enough on a 'normal' road - but the fact that they have just hidden the signage down the wrong end of a cul de sac is just ridiculous! (I was going to say 'unbelievable'... but sadly it's all too believable!)
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Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 11:08
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Thanks so much for your help! I really think this would be bad enough on a 'normal' road - but the fact that they have just hidden the signage down the wrong end of a cul de sac is just ridiculous! (I was going to say 'unbelievable'... but sadly it's all too believable!) Wait til you see their response if you want unbelievable -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 11:32
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,063 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
Right, left, right, left...
IMO you cannot just dive straight in with what is virtually a lecture on the law. Start off with you. As can be seen in the council's photos, I parked approx. 3 car lengths into the parking place which runs continuously for a distance of approx. ** metres from numbers *** to ****. I was parked o/s no. *. I looked for a traffic sign in the vicinity, venturing as far as no. *, but did not see one. I therefore reasonably assumed that no parking restrictions applied. On my return and upon finding the PCN I still could not see a sign for residents parking. I have since seen the council's photos which show a solitary traffic sign o/s no.** i.e. at the furthest extent from the other end of the parking place and some ** metres from my car. I believe that this signage is inadequate as it does not comply with **** and therefore the PCN must be cancelled. If the authority do not cancel, then given the de facto position of the only traffic sign they must explain with justification why they believe that the display of a single traffic sign *** metres from the beginning of the area it purports to restrict is compliant. It would not be satisfactory to simply explain why the CEO issued the PCN(just carrying out orders) as this is not in dispute i.e. I was parked in a parking place regulated by order. The point at issue is the council's failure to sign this as required by law and the consequence of the failure in this case i.e. the penalty may not be enforced. IMO, you must get them to justify their position in detail. This has three potential benefits: They'll see reason and cancel; They'll ignore and commit a procedural impropriety; They'll provide a lame defence which you could attack at the formal reps stage. This post has been edited by hcandersen: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 11:34 |
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Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 12:35
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Right, left, right, left... IMO you cannot just dive straight in with what is virtually a lecture on the law. Start off with you. As can be seen in the council's photos, I parked approx. 3 car lengths into the parking place which runs continuously for a distance of approx. ** metres from numbers *** to ****. I was parked o/s no. *. I looked for a traffic sign in the vicinity, venturing as far as no. *, but did not see one. I therefore reasonably assumed that no parking restrictions applied. On my return and upon finding the PCN I still could not see a sign for residents parking. I have since seen the council's photos which show a solitary traffic sign o/s no.** i.e. at the furthest extent from the other end of the parking place and some ** metres from my car. I believe that this signage is inadequate as it does not comply with **** and therefore the PCN must be cancelled. If the authority do not cancel, then given the de facto position of the only traffic sign they must explain with justification why they believe that the display of a single traffic sign *** metres from the beginning of the area it purports to restrict is compliant. It would not be satisfactory to simply explain why the CEO issued the PCN(just carrying out orders) as this is not in dispute i.e. I was parked in a parking place regulated by order. The point at issue is the council's failure to sign this as required by law and the consequence of the failure in this case i.e. the penalty may not be enforced. IMO, you must get them to justify their position in detail. This has three potential benefits: They'll see reason and cancel; They'll ignore and commit a procedural impropriety; They'll provide a lame defence which you could attack at the formal reps stage. I have no objection to your tack edit Sorry that sounds a bit pompous on its own. I take a different approach. we see about 99% of informal challenges rejected, with a legalistic type challenge I have used the council will most likely tell you why they gave a PCN and ignore the points made, because the don't understand them or can't be bothered checking. but I see nothing wrong with the different approach suggested by HCA This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 13:35 -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 18:31
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 55 Joined: 2 Sep 2015 Member No.: 79,170 |
Okay, so as you predicted, the response from the council isn't great and I got rejected. Only just read it but my main points are he has just said 'no, the signage is sufficient' - but totally ignored the fact that they don't comply with the 15m from entrance rule.
Also, apparently a white box going onto a pavement is sufficient to say don't park here. I park on these all the time in London. They mean 'park up on the pavement inside the box in this narrow street'! What a total lie! This post has been edited by HNorm: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 18:36 |
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Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 18:40
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
We need to see the rejection
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 18:50
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 55 Joined: 2 Sep 2015 Member No.: 79,170 |
[attachment=59798:IMG_E1103_25.jpg]
Sorry, took a little longer than anticipated to resize! In my opinion they haven't done this. "If the authority do not cancel, then given the de facto position of the only traffic sign they must explain with justification why they believe that the display of a single traffic sign *** metres from the beginning of the area it purports to restrict is compliant." They've just ignored that whole issue and said "the signage is okay". |
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Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 19:53
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Looks like failure to consider, I would wait for the NtO.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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