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Motorbike in THE Notorius Shepherds Bush Bus Lane Pcn, PCN in buslane
innnocentman
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 11:58
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I recieved a PCN for being in Hammersmith Bus lane.
I've been out of the country for 2 years and I always thought non central bus lanes were ok to ride in?
I never knew Motorbikes couldnt go in bus lanes!?

https://imgur.com/a/mZgfVn2
https://imgur.com/a/mZgfVn2

1. The time says contravention at 16:10 but It has no shots of me in at 16.10.00

2. The shot of my license plate is outside a bus lane

3. There was a bus in the way of the buslane sign.

4. I seriously thought bus lanes outside central london were ok for motorbikes. What is the law on that?

Thanks guys

This post has been edited by innnocentman: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 11:59
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post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 11:58
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stamfordman
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 12:50
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Councils can decide whether to allow m/cs in bus lanes so there is variation even within the same council I'm afraid - especially in London. TFL allows bikes in most red route lanes but not all.

I expect you've checked the past cases here but I think we had one biker go to tribunal who lost, after a long saga, much to his disgust.
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innnocentman
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 15:26
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... Yea I dont understand what the rules are for buslane motorbikes. What sign says motorbikes are ok?

At the moment I have copied someones appeal stating that signage isnt sufficient especially with the bus blocking my view.
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cp8759
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 18:15
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Post the PCN in full, redacting just name and address, also post a link to the location on Google Street View and the council video.


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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stamfordman
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 19:01
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QUOTE (innnocentman @ Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 16:26) *
What sign says motorbikes are ok?


Strangely, an icon of a motorbike and rider.

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innnocentman
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 22:37
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yes but some bus lanes Do not show a motorbike but let us in anyway.
Or am I wrong on that?

Me in BusLane

PCN

Me outside BusLane







These are the PCN and their photo evidence shots...

They have the time possibly wrong as they say 16:10 but the clock shows 16:10:56

Also theyre shot of my bike license is outside the buslane

Also the DoubleDecker bus appears to be blocking the signage


-----------------------------
When I requested the evidence I got this page:

View CCTV Evidence
Processing

Your viewing request was accepted, we are currently in the process of preparing your still images and video footage. If you opted to be notified via email or text message then you will receive notification as soon as your still images and video footage are ready for viewing. If you opted not to provide an email address or mobile number, you will need to check this website again after 24 hours to view the still images and video footage.

---------------------

LOCATION:
https://goo.gl/maps/CPnAzLp3wCr

-------------------

Argument Proposal:
I think inproper signage + Signage obstruction will be my argument but I defer to your better judgements

This post has been edited by innnocentman: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 22:44
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stamfordman
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 08:08
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QUOTE (innnocentman @ Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 23:37) *
yes but some bus lanes Do not show a motorbike but let us in anyway.
Or am I wrong on that?



I think you are wrong - you'd be foolish to use a lane without the symbol.
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innnocentman
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 08:38
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I have the video but you cant right click and download it
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stamfordman
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 09:02
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If you PM me the details I should be able to post it for you later today.
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Earl Purple
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 13:50
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If you make a challenge it should be on the grounds of "I could not see I was entering a bus lane" rather than "I thought motorcycles were allowed to use bus lanes".

The latter won't hold as a valid challenge, the former will. So the defence is that you were probably passing a line of traffic already, then moved back to your own side of the road and could not see a sign that said you were entering a bus lane, because it was obscured by all the traffic you were passing, in particular the bus.

The markings on the ground are not relevant other than showing where the bus lane is.

There have been a lot of successful challenges for that bus lane stretch. And as Hammersmith & Fulham allow usage of some bus lanes for motorcycles it makes no sense to me why they don't allow that one, given the circumstances of the way motorcycles are likely to be in the offside lane. However what they should allow isn't a challenge so don't use that as a ground.
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stamfordman
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 13:57
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This is the case I was thinking of - I was wrong, it was a no contest, but costs refused.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=113227&hl=

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stamfordman
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 20:51
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Video - doesn't help you at all but does show once again what a ridiculous lane this is, especially for excluding bikes in my view.

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innnocentman
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 21:12
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The video does show the stationary bus obstructing where I believe the bus lane sign is.
Lol at that cameraman.. He mustve shot about 1000 cars that day
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Earl Purple
post Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 08:59
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The video shows the motorcyclist on the opposite carriageway at the point he moves back into the lane, and when you're doing that you tend to be concentrating mostly on whether anything is about to come towards you anyway, and signs for unexpected off-side bus-lanes.

That lane doesn't even lead anywhere, but if buses do need to move over to the right hand side for the purpose of being in the right place at the roundabout the way that is normally done is a bus-lane near where the bus stop is and a traffic light scheme so the bus can move out and cross over safely.

Hammersmith & Fulham council would make life simpler by simply allowing motorcycles into that bus lane even if they are not allowed into all bus lanes, atlhough I think the whole thing is nonsense I can't see how it will make buses flow quicker as they have no easy access to that lane.


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innnocentman
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 08:46
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What is the best appeal argument?
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Earl Purple
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 11:33
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As I said it must be on the grounds of unclear signage, and not that you thought motorcycles can use all bus lanes.

You were in a position offside i.e. the oncoming carriageway overtaking a line of vehicles and from that position you could not see the bus lane sign as it was obscured by the bus.

If they really wanted to prevent motorcycles being there they should put double white lines in the road just prior to the start of the lane (which means you couldn't be there overtaking) so you'd have to pull in earlier, and then have a sign in clear view.

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innnocentman
post Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 10:01
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APPEAL RESPONSE:

I have carefully considered what you have said and all the available evidence, but I do not agree that we should cancel your liability for this PCN.This PCN was issued by one of our camera enforcement operators because they observed and recorded the vehicle travelling in the bus lane, gaining advantage by ‘jumping the queue’ of traffic that was waiting in the correct lane.
There are two bus lanes in this part of Shepherds Bush Road. The longest lane runs southbound on the inside lane of the carriageway.
On the approach to Hammersmith Broadway, the second bus lane switches to the offside lane. This offside bus lane enables buses to gain easier and safer access to Hammersmith Broadway Bus Station. There are large blue and white signs at the start of the offside bus lane, showing the times when it is operational. The bus lane is separated from the general traffic lane by a thick white line.

There is also sufficient space between the two bus lanes, for motorists to remain in the general traffic lane. While the restrictions are in force, motorists should not drive in a bus lane. I am therefore satisfied that the PCN was correctly issued.I note your comments regarding not being able to see the sign, however the “Bus Lane” markings on the road and the road surface of the bus lane is of a different colour to the general traffic lanes, these would have informed you were entering into a bus lane.

Given the Department for Transport authorisation and additional measures introduced at this location, we are satisfied that the offside bus lane is enforceable and meets the requirements of the Traffic Sign Regulations & General Directions 2002 (As amended).The placing of signs and markings on the public highway is also done in accordance with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002, a statutory instrument that governs the type, size and where certain signs and markings may be used.

It doesnt look good for me. Theyre basically saying the markings on the road are enough signage but once your in the lane your already in it!
What should I do?
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 10:22
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These go both ways, you will need to show to an adjudicator that there is a good chance the signs were obscured, you can quote cases as will the authority,

You can also question there consideration of your reps and if it could be done satisfactorily using the wrong regs TSRGD 2002 was revoked in 2016

2180132152


This is an appeal against entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited. The Appellant attended in person and made clear and cogent representations to me for which I am grateful.
In short, I have viewed the CCTV footage. In my view, the (relatively slight and momentary) contravention did probably occur, although, this is more to do with an culmination of circumstances rather than any malicious intent on the part of the Appellant.
However, the Appellant is in truth arguing that the Respondent failed to properly consider her representations which she made against the PCN. Indeed, it was the intention of Parliament that motorists would have the right to make representations about the imposition of a PCN and that the Enforcing Authority would, as part of their statutory duty, properly consider such representations.
The Appellant makes a relatively simple point: how can I be satisfied that the Respondent has properly considered her representations when they have made references to the incorrect law? Or perhaps properly, how can I be satisfied that they have met their statutory duty?
The Respondent made reference to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002, these were revoked by Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016/362 Sch.19(1) para.1 on 22 April 2016, before this contravention is said to have occurred.
The Respondent acknowledges the error but avers it matters not as the prohibition is identical. Whilst I do not demur from that as a statement of fact, it is not a sufficient rebuttal to the Appellant's point.
In my view, it would be wrong for this Tribunal to find that the Respondent has fulfilled its statutory duty to consider representations when it has referred to the incorrect statutory framework.
It follows that I allow the appeal.


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innnocentman
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 09:08
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Your saying they are using an invalid regulation to fine me?

Im not sure if its worth the risk to appeal again as even if I win I would have to pay legal costs?
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 09:17
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QUOTE (innnocentman @ Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 10:08) *
Your saying they are using an invalid regulation to fine me?

Im not sure if its worth the risk to appeal again as even if I win I would have to pay legal costs?


You have not appealed yet, you have made representations to the council that the PCN is invalid. They have rejected them, you now have the opportunity to appeal to an independent adjudicator.

Didn't know where you got legal costs from, an appeal costs nothing providing it is not vexatious frivolous or wholly unreasonable. and its cant be really can it, as the reasoning has won in the past


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