Sutton PCN 62 |
Sutton PCN 62 |
Wed, 30 May 2018 - 13:09
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 59 Joined: 23 May 2018 Member No.: 98,075 |
Hi
I received the attached PCN within the London Borough of Sutton on 22 May. I made the following representation: "Dear Sir/Madam I am writing to challenge the Penalty Charge Notice issued yesterday evening. Between Bridge Road and Bute Road, there is an exemption to the footway parking ban on the north side of Clifton Road. Parking on the south side is fully on road. My vehicle was parked consistently with all other vehicles parked on the north side of Clifton Road. Therefore, it was not causing any greater obstruction than any other vehicle similarly parked on the footway. Had my vehicle been parked fully on the road it would, in fact, have caused an obstruction to traffic passing along Clifton Road, as there was a car parked fully on the road directly opposite on the south side. In order to clarify whether a parking contravention has, in fact, occurred, please provide me with a copy of the resolution, and any subsequent amendments, which created the exemption to the ban on footway parking on the north side of Clifton Road. Until such resolution has been received by me, I maintain that no parking contravention has occurred and I would ask that you cancel the Penalty Charge Notice." I received the following response: How should I respond and when? Do I now need to wait for a Notice to Owner before I can formally challenge the PCN? Will that keep the discounted period open? Thanks. This post has been edited by chinmeytops: Wed, 30 May 2018 - 13:23 |
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Wed, 30 May 2018 - 13:09
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Fri, 5 Oct 2018 - 15:28
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#81
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Local Government Acts require resolutions to be made by the (full) council. You need something to back this up, otherwise it's just your unsubstantiated assertion. Find a statute or a court decision that supports this view, and quote it. Otherwise the reviewing adjudicator will likely brush this aside as being without merit. This post has been edited by cp8759: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 20:20 -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 5 Oct 2018 - 16:42
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#82
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Member Group: Members Posts: 59 Joined: 23 May 2018 Member No.: 98,075 |
Local Government Acts require resolutions to be made by the (full) council. You need something to back this up, otherwise it's just your unsubstantiated assertion. That a statute or a court decision that supports this view, and quote it. Otherwise the reviewing adjudicator will likely brush this aside as being without merit. Do either you or HCA know the relevant piece of legislation or court decision? Was simply quoting HCA. However, after much searching, I have found this from Sutton council itself, various references to the GLC (GP) Act 1974, in particular see 6.5: https://moderngov.sutton.gov.uk/documents/s...y%20Parking.pdf And this from Barnet, see in particular 9.1, 9.9, 9.10: https://barnet.moderngov.co.uk/documents/s3...y%20Parking.pdf By the way did Sutton ever provide a proper response to your FOI request? This post has been edited by chinmeytops: Sat, 6 Oct 2018 - 13:38 |
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Sat, 6 Oct 2018 - 21:37
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#83
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Do either you or HCA know the relevant piece of legislation or court decision? Was simply quoting HCA. However, after much searching, I have found this from Sutton council itself, various references to the GLC (GP) Act 1974, in particular see 6.5: https://moderngov.sutton.gov.uk/documents/s...y%20Parking.pdf This is good, use it. And this from Barnet, see in particular 9.1, 9.9, 9.10: https://barnet.moderngov.co.uk/documents/s3...y%20Parking.pdf Not so useful as it's from a different authority. By the way did Sutton ever provide a proper response to your FOI request? No, it's with the information commissioner at the moment but they have quite a backlog. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 08:54
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#84
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Member Group: Members Posts: 59 Joined: 23 May 2018 Member No.: 98,075 |
Do either you or HCA know the relevant piece of legislation or court decision? Was simply quoting HCA. However, after much searching, I have found this from Sutton council itself, various references to the GLC (GP) Act 1974, in particular see 6.5: https://moderngov.sutton.gov.uk/documents/s...y%20Parking.pdf This is good, use it. So, my application for a review of the decision is based upon whether a Traffic Management Order made under ss32 and 45 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 is or can be considered to be a resolution of the Council as prescribed under s15(4) of the Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1974. I am not in a position to argue the case which hca made, that a resolution has to be passed by full council and is not something which may be delegated, so presumably I need to drop this line of argument? Whilst retaining "The view of the Council's legal officers should be sought regarding whether, in the Council's opinion, the order has the effect of a resolution and evidence sought that the precedent conditions for making a resolution were complied with as part of the order making process."? I can only put forward the relevant precedent: https://moderngov.sutton.gov.uk/documents/s...y%20Parking.pdf where in 6.5, Sutton expressly acknowledges the requirement "to pass a resolution under Section 15(4) of the GLC (GP) A1974" and thereby acknowledging that a resolution is distinct from the TMO referenced in the previous para 6.4. Do you agree? I can see 4.1 states "The ban requires that each road be reviewed on an individual basis to determine whether or not footway parking should be permitted, and a Council resolution passed in respect of any roads that are to be exempted from the general footway parking ban" but I have no evidence to support whether this is a full Council resolution or not. Finally may I amend the pro forma letter (on the London Tribunals website) to include references to two separate sets of Regulations? "apply to the adjudicator for a review of the decision under Regulation 12 of the Schedule to The Road User Charging (Enforcement and Adjudication) (London) Regulations 2001 and Clause 12(1)(b)(vi), Regulation 15 of the Schedule to The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007"? Many thanks. |
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Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 09:22
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#85
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,063 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
I cannot find the specific legal reference of which I was aware when I worked in the business.
But this is no reason to not make the point, you are not a trained advocate. It's the adj's task to know the law and clearly this point in combination with the council's own earlier admission must give the reviewing adjudicator sufficient grounds. They have access to text books on local government law and its application, look it up, don't guess. |
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Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 09:25
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#86
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Member Group: Members Posts: 59 Joined: 23 May 2018 Member No.: 98,075 |
I cannot find the specific legal reference of which I was aware when I worked in the business. But this is no reason to not make the point, you are not a trained advocate. It's the adj's task to know the law and clearly this point in combination with the council's own earlier admission must give the reviewing adjudicator sufficient grounds. They have access to text books on local government law and its application, look it up, don't guess. "in combination with the council's own earlier admission" - sorry, what are you referring to specifically? Do you mean this precedent? https://moderngov.sutton.gov.uk/documents/s...y%20Parking.pdf Thanks. This post has been edited by chinmeytops: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 09:59 |
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Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 15:33
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#87
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Member Group: Members Posts: 59 Joined: 23 May 2018 Member No.: 98,075 |
Conscious that I am running up to 14 days since the decision, I have now posted a letter to London Tribunals, copying the council.
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Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 11:02
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#88
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Member Group: Members Posts: 59 Joined: 23 May 2018 Member No.: 98,075 |
I am attaching both my application for a review of the adjudicator decision and the subsequent "No Reason To Review" letter in response.
Mr Timothy Thorne appears to have totally ignored the Sutton council precedent (6th Sept 2016), where they appear to acknowledge the distinction between passing a resolution and making a TMO. Surely, he has a duty to address this point? |
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Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 14:29
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#89
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Well do you want to take it to the High Court?
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 14:36
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#90
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Member Group: Members Posts: 59 Joined: 23 May 2018 Member No.: 98,075 |
Well do you want to take it to the High Court? Not really, just feeling a tad disappointed that they did not even look at or comment on the precedent I made reference to. It seemed as though I had a strong case at the outset. Everyone on here appeared to be surprised at the adjudicator's decision which, as a precedent, seems to set a fairly low standard for councils going forward. At the hearing, it felt like I was being grilled and trying to argue my case as though I were a lawyer, whereas the council did not have to do so. That said, I know I had no obligation to attend the hearing. The particular point in the road is still ambiguous in that there is neither a bay nor yellow lines (single or double). I do appreciate all your help and advice along the way. Lesson learned! This post has been edited by chinmeytops: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 14:51 |
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Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 16:46
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#91
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20,919 Joined: 22 Apr 2012 Member No.: 54,455 |
Its called a Fob Off under the unofficial principle of "don't rock the boat, for heavens sake".
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