Yellow Box Junction |
Yellow Box Junction |
Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 13:16
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#1
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 18 Jul 2019 From: London Member No.: 104,830 |
This event happened in London Borough of Hammersmith & Fulham, Harwood Road J/w Effie Road, Fulham Broadway.
The traffic lights ahead of me were red and I stopped behind a Yellow Box Junction. There was one vehicle ahead of me in front of the Box Junction, also stationary waiting at the same red traffic light. The vehicle in front had moved some way forward and there appeared to be space enough for my vehicle to move in to the space behind said vehicle. However my car is large and there was not quite enough space so 25% of my vehicle remained in the box for 25 seconds and the local authority's video confirms this. On 9th June I made a representation; "My understanding of the law is that one may enter the box junction when one is making a right turn right and are stopped from doing so by other vehicles waiting to turn right. In this instance I was making a right turn and there was a vehicle in front of me turning right. Please note, being mindful of highway code and other traffic I waited some time before moving forward, the majority of my vehicle was not in the box, a minority part of my vehicle was in the box for only 25 seconds. The box is positioned to prevent the restriction to junction with Effie Road, clearly there was no restriction by my action, your video confirms all of this and your PCN appears overzealous." I received a Notice of Rejection of Representation on 12th July 2019 by email and formal letter several days later. I made a further appeal for discretion; "Thank you for your letter of 12th July 2019. There are several applicable points upon which I fully intend to appeal this PCN to the Environment and Traffic Adjudicators. Before doing so I urge you to reconsider and show discretion to cancel this PCN forthwith before any further time and expense is expended on this matter. In first instance quoting from LBHF GUIDELINE POLICY ON ENFORCEMENT OF BOX JUNCTIONS Point 9 would give good reason to cancel; "On smaller box junctions 25%”grace” would apply as long as they are not an obstruction." I hope you will reconsider and look forward to hearing from you." 3x documents attached. Any Forum thoughts much appreciated. This post has been edited by jb100: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 09:51
Attached File(s)
PCN_HZ25447475_2019_05_30_images_Pepipoo.pdf ( 295.6K )
Number of downloads: 40
PCN_HZ25447475_2019_07_12_appeal_1_rejection_Pepipoo.pdf ( 1.41MB ) Number of downloads: 44 |
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Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 13:16
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Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 13:29
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
This appears to be a civil matter as a council PCN, I've asked a mod to move it to the right forum.
You'll need a scan/photo of ALL the PCN with just personal details redacted. (read the FAQ on how to post them please). -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 10:35
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
For a contravention like this we must see the video to provide any meaningful advice. You can use flash video download for chrome http://bit.ly/2ssa49D or firefox https://mzl.la/2FrDltz to download it from the council website, then upload it to a site like youtube or vimeo
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 11:00
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
This junction is well known to us and the council play tough on it. There is only a bit of room ahead by the lights and two lanes for different directions.
As CP says the video is crucial. |
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Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 15:34
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#5
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 18 Jul 2019 From: London Member No.: 104,830 |
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Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 19:50
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20,915 Joined: 22 Apr 2012 Member No.: 54,455 |
Whilst the statute just refers to an exemption for turning right, it has always been taken as understood, (i.e. what is the intention of Parliament), that the RH turn exemption is into a street that is part of the junction covered by the YBJ, in other words the RH turn is from out of the YBJ, and not at a street further on. Having looked at the video, I reckon you are bang-to-rights as the turn is well beyond the YBJ.
This post has been edited by Incandescent: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 19:51 |
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Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 19:59
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
Whilst the statute just refers to an exemption for turning right, it has always been taken as understood, (i.e. what is the intention of Parliament), that the RH turn exemption is into a street that is part of the junction covered by the YBJ, in other words the RH turn is from out of the YBJ, and not at a street further on. Having looked at the video, I reckon you are bang-to-rights as the turn is well beyond the YBJ. There was no turn - OP was going straight on. There was a bit of room ahead and it's a fairly small enchroachment that really should not be enforced. But hey ho. Could be worth a shot with the tribunal. Doesn't help that the OP is driving something the size of a tank - better get something smaller for city driving. |
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Sun, 21 Jul 2019 - 23:37
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#8
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 18 Jul 2019 From: London Member No.: 104,830 |
Whilst the statute just refers to an exemption for turning right, it has always been taken as understood, (i.e. what is the intention of Parliament), that the RH turn exemption is into a street that is part of the junction covered by the YBJ, in other words the RH turn is from out of the YBJ, and not at a street further on. Having looked at the video, I reckon you are bang-to-rights as the turn is well beyond the YBJ. There was no turn - OP was going straight on. There was a bit of room ahead and it's a fairly small enchroachment that really should not be enforced. But hey ho. Could be worth a shot with the tribunal. Doesn't help that the OP is driving something the size of a tank - better get something smaller for city driving. Thoughts appreciated, thank you Stamfordman, someone else mentioned a possible discrepancy in the Local Authority's PCN DATE OF THIS NOTICE and subsequent wording where it quotes "date of service of this notice", could there be something wrong here? Tank is appropriate for wife, 3 kids, dog, me, plus extended family, friends, etc... as and when required, admittedly we're not in it all of the time but one car seemed more efficient than two! |
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Mon, 22 Jul 2019 - 10:31
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,057 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
The discount is still on offer until 29th.
The contravention occurred, they have not exercised discretion and have issued a NOR. £65 could be a useful asset to someone who has a 'wife, 3 kids, dog, me, plus extended family,'. 'Could be worth a shot with the tribunal.', yes £65 to be precise. |
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Mon, 22 Jul 2019 - 16:02
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Thoughts appreciated, thank you Stamfordman, someone else mentioned a possible discrepancy in the Local Authority's PCN DATE OF THIS NOTICE and subsequent wording where it quotes "date of service of this notice", could there be something wrong here? We've have no idea, because you've not posted up all the paperwork. If you upload all sides of all pages of all documents, we can take a look. However H&F PCNs are not known for containing any errors and the first page of the PCN looks right to me. The only issue I can think of is Shelley Sinclair, but it would be a gamble to go to the tribunal based just on that. This post has been edited by cp8759: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 - 16:04 -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 11:32
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#11
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 18 Jul 2019 From: London Member No.: 104,830 |
Thank you all, £65 paid to H&F, hopefully my contribution to their community will be wisely spent, on the plus side I've saved £65.00.
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