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Goswell Rd Islington vs City of London, Told by CoL wardens OK to park single yellow; Islington then issue PCN
sainthalo
post Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 13:05
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I (now understand) that where I parked is on the border between Islington and City of London council (the Goswell Rd / Aldersgate Rd (EDIT: Aldersgate Street EC1) junction).

I could not find any street signage to identify the restricted parking times for the single yellow line.

I saw three wardens (a female and two males). They each wore the same traffic warden uniform which had a peaked black cap with a red band.

I asked all three officers collectively if it was okay to park my car on this single yellow line and pointed to the single yellow line and to my parked car.

The female traffic warden informed me from across the road that it was okay to park my car on a single yellow line. I was stood next to my car.

Around an hour later at 1858 I was issued a PCN by Islington Council.

It seems the female traffic warden mislead me and the two male officers didn't correct her.

As they are all official traffic wardens (whether from Islington or from City of London) it was reasonable and proper for me to believe them.

I couldn't identify the nearest street signage showing the controlled hours for the single yellow line.

Surely there should be street signage identifying controlled hours at the Goswell Rd / Aldersgate Rd junction as it seems it is a border between City of London and Islington and therefore is an entrance point to a zone controlled by Islington?

PCN attached in case of interest.

Location of parking was before the white van in this picture: https://goo.gl/maps/UnixyvfF1tA2

This post has been edited by sainthalo: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 17:55
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post Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 13:05
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hcandersen
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 11:18
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Or we both are😀
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 12:31
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 11:18) *
Or we both are😀


Don't see it as out of step to highlight weaknesses. This will all come down to who an adjudicator believes, so your trying to drag out the answers now at the very least should focus the OP
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sainthalo
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 12:55
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 14:12) *
QUOTE (superkoreanzombie @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 13:00) *
......As for the 3 wardens, unless u have their badge numbers it would be pointless mentioning it in any appeal. I’ve tried that and the council asked me to provide proof


Not useless.
Council will not accept (or at least unlikely to) even with badge numbers.
But adjudicators will if they believe the appellant.
Mentioning it now, at informal stage and keep repeating it helps cement that credibility.


I have done a FOI request to both councils asking for identities of the three wardens.
I have asked for CCTV footage or stills showing me talking to them as well.
I will have to pay £10 to get the footage under a DPA SAR.


QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 10:04) *
We need the exact story on the route and where he spoke to the CEOs from the OP.


I just can't remember the route I drove. I followed a satnav. I drive in central london a lot over the years so it has all faded into one.

I spoke to the CEOs from the side of the road I parked on. They were across the road. I shouted across andpointed down to single yellows and asked "is it okay to park on these single yellows at this time?". The lady replied and said "yes it's fine" and gave me a thumbs up; she even smiled.

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stamfordman
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 13:19
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QUOTE (sainthalo @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 12:55) *
I just can't remember the route I drove. I followed a satnav. I drive in central london a lot over the years so it has all faded into one.

I spoke to the CEOs from the side of the road I parked on. They were across the road. I shouted across andpointed down to single yellows and asked "is it okay to park on these single yellows at this time?". The lady replied and said "yes it's fine" and gave me a thumbs up; she even smiled.


Simple question - did you park in the direction of the lane you were in or did you cross over facing the traffic and park. If you email Islington they will send the pics, which will determine this.

So all 3 CEOs were across the road? In that case they were probably all City of London and not Islington. I can't see Islington being bothered about people not in its remit.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 13:26
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DancingDad
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 14:27
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PCN date 6/1/18
Clock is ticking, do not miss deadlines.
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hcandersen
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 22:29
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'They were across the road.'

So, as per DD, they were probably not CEOs of the relevant authority and so your grounds, if they existed, have gone.

In any event, IMO your chances of convincing an adjudicator that they gave you permission to park by virtue of a conversation across a busy road are the square root of s*d all.

Sorry if this is not what you want to hear.

Can we please return to the contravention, the lines, signs and your entry into the restricted area and park the CEOs.
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DancingDad
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 22:51
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 22:29) *
'They were across the road.'

So, as per DD, they were probably not CEOs of the relevant authority and so your grounds, if they existed, have gone.

In any event, IMO your chances of convincing an adjudicator that they gave you permission to park by virtue of a conversation across a busy road are the square root of s*d all.

Sorry if this is not what you want to hear..........


Wasn't me wot suggested another authority.
But would make sense.

But I don't agree that this refutes or weakens the "acting on authority of.."
Asking some random people in flo yellow jackets and expect to be rejected but asked CEOs, in the street, with no clue that there is a border down the middle of the street...
Why should not an adjudicator believe and agree?
Can't see why across the road makes any difference either, not as though he was shouting across the M25.
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stamfordman
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 23:35
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 22:51) *
But I don't agree that this refutes or weakens the "acting on authority of.."
Asking some random people in flo yellow jackets and expect to be rejected but asked CEOs, in the street, with no clue that there is a border down the middle of the street...
Why should not an adjudicator believe and agree?
Can't see why across the road makes any difference either, not as though he was shouting across the M25.



Well it may succeed at adjudication but without a statement from the City CEO (should it be them) it's pretty flimsy and would rely on turning up in person.

I can't see Islington accepting it.

Goswell Road is very busy and quite wide at that point too.

The CEOs could be Islington as there are shops there to buy refreshments.
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DancingDad
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 00:21
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 23:35) *
........Well it may succeed at adjudication but without a statement from the City CEO (should it be them) it's pretty flimsy and would rely on turning up in person.

I can't see Islington accepting it.


The moment anyone uses that they relied on information from a CEO, either in full or in part, I think they have to plan on a personal hearing.
It is an easy claim to make, difficult to prove but adjudicators do put store in credibility.
If they believe, they will accept.
Council wouldn't even with a signed note from Sadiq Khan saying he said it was okay.

As I put earlier in thread, I was confused, thought I should be okay at that time of the day but hadn't seen signs or could see any locally.
However, I saw 3 CEOs across the road. Two men and a woman.
I called over and asked if I could park, pointing at my vehicle and the yellow line.
The female CEO called back, I think she said okay but smiled and gave me the thumbs up.
There is no doubt in my mind that she understood my request and affirmed that the yellow line restriction was not in operating times.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 00:31
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hcandersen
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 07:38
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'...but hadn't seen signs or could see any locally.'


But why? They're either there or not. If they're not there, you would win on this point. But if they are, then why did you not see them?

Photos and facts, not reliance on 'I think she understood me..' which must fail at adjudication given the implausibility of this line. You saw and heard what you wanted and have no idea what the other CEOs heard or understood. For all you know, a thumbs up could and IMO would more likely mean that we're not the CEOs for that side of the road so you're safe from us, which is rather supported by the fact that you didn't receive the PCN until an hour later although you left your vehicle in what they would know was contravention. Why should they wait an hour if it was their manor? The facts don't fit.


You have until no later than 19th in which to make a risk-free challenge.
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DancingDad
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 09:00
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The whole point on reliance on a CEO is that people do get confused about signs and times, they miss signage that perhaps is clear.
So they ask a CEO who happens to be nearby.
And are entitled to rely on the answer.

It doesn't matter if signs are clear. Though if they are iffy as has been suggested, then this helps.
It doesn't matter if the CEO in question is from a different manor, how does Joe Public know this ?
It doesn't matter is the CEO was sticking her thumb up while thinking "That'll f*** him"
It is down to what the driver understood, their understanding.

All that matters is if an adjudicator believes.

I am not suggesting it as the only point but am saying do not ignore it.
Without the story, the line is simply I parked on a single yellow and ignored the possibility that the time was restricted.
That will go down a storm at adjudication.
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hcandersen
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 10:25
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That will go down a storm at adjudication.

Why are we so focused on adjudication? One step at a time. As as the authority's case becomes clear then we can look at the relative merits of their and the OP's case.

The OP hasn't even submitted a challenge yet and we're bereft of facts to say the least.
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DancingDad
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 11:13
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 10:25) *
.....Why are we so focused on adjudication? ........


I always focus on adjudication as being the likely end result of challenges.
So try to tailor my advice on the long view, not only the short term.
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hcandersen
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 13:20
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And me, but in a way which informs the challenge while still having the end game in mind.

But we can't here because we know s*d all about the circumstances.

OP, the photos, how you came to park there, your direction of approach.. the boring basics.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 13:21
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Mad Mick V
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 20:23
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This may be of interest:-

2170562031

The appellant appeared before me today.

The allegation in these proceedings was that this vehicle was parked on Boundary Road after the expiry of paid-for time.

The appellant explained that one side of Boundary Road fell within the City of Westminster the other side within the jurisdiction of the issuing council, Camden. The appellant said that Westminster's side of this street was clearly signed as falling within it. Camden's side was not. He provided supporting photographs.

This is an electric vehicle.

The appellant said that his business premises were in Westminster electric vehicles parking in that borough being permitted to do so for free for up to 4 hours provided a registration fee of 81 pence was paid upon parking. He had parked at 12:01 and made such payment via RingGo believing he had paid for a 4 hour parking session in Westminster and not Camden (where the aforementioned concession regarding electric vehicles did not apply) the bay not being signed as falling within Camden.

I acknowledged the submissions made by the council on this point but in the absence of signage identifying the location of this bay as being within Camden I was not satisfied that this restriction was clearly signed and I found for that reason that the contravention had not been proved.

Mick
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sainthalo
post Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 19:36
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 14:20) *
OP, the photos, how you came to park there, your direction of approach.. the boring basics.


Have chase council to give outcome and will request their pictures.

Location of parking was before the white van in this picture facing same direction: https://goo.gl/maps/UnixyvfF1tA2

Car was parked in northerly direction as per white van in above shot.

I believe I drove into the area via the City side not Islington side.

I submitted a challenge and continue to await the council responding.

I understand I will probably need to give evidence at a tribunal to resolve this issue.

Please see attached screenshot, my car was parked at the asterisk I have doodled onto the screenshot.

Also note the controlled zone sign and the City of London signage

Please note that it was early evening on a Saturday and there was no traffic when I asked the three CEOs across the road - they could hear me and I could hear them.

Attached Image
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stamfordman
post Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 19:46
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QUOTE (sainthalo @ Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 19:36) *
I believe I drove into the area via the City side not Islington side.

Also note the controlled zone sign and the City of London signage



No, as I thought you drove right by the Islington CPZ sign and parked on the Islington side. That CPZ sign will no doubt have been changed as of last year.
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sainthalo
post Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 13:37
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CASE FINALLY RESOLVED! smile.gif


QUOTE
Penalty Charge Notice No. IZ07996979 Date of Issue 06/01/2018 at 18:58
Location of Contravention Goswell Road [Zone C]

Thank you for your emails regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) which were recently received at this office.

The Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) was issued because the vehicle was parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours.

I have read your email and taken notes of your comments. The signs regarding parking times for this location are placed on the Controlled Parking Zones (CPZ) entry signs which you would have passed to enter this zone. In Zone C it states that no parking is permitted at any time Monday to Friday and Sunday from Midnight to 6am. It is the drivers responsibility to ensure they have parked correctly regardless of whom they ask. The nature of the Civil Enforcement Officer's duty is to issue PCNs against vehicles parked in contravention of the restrictions. It is not the CEO's duty to ensure the driver has parked correctly. The signage is clearly in place and is the primary source of information regarding the restrictions.

I appreciate you have submitted a Freedom of Information (FOI) request. However, this is treated separately to your appeal. As such, the case would not remain on hold whilst you wait for a response.

I understand from your email you have queried why there is no CPZ entry sign located on Aldersgate Road. However, there is no such road. It is Aldersgate Street. I can confirm at the border between the City of London and Islington there is a CPZ entry sign confirming the restricted hours. Please see the attachment. As you can see the sign is located on Aldersgate Street, prior to entering Goswell Road.

For your information, in order to submit an appeal to the Environment and Traffic Adjudicators (ETA) you would need to submit formal representations in response to a Notice to Owner. Should your formal representations be rejected, then you would have the right to appeal to ETA.

Having reviewed the case, I am satisfied the contravention occurred. However, I am not satisfied with the information submitted by the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO). As such, I have decided to cancel the PCN. Please note, future PCNs issued for the same contravention may be upheld.

As the ticket has now been cancelled, there is no need for you to take any further action.

Yours sincerely
A**** H****

Correspondence And Appeals Officer
Islington Parking Services
PO Box 2019, Pershore, WR10 9BN
Contact Islington: 0207 527 2000
Email: islingtonparking@civica-rm.co.uk
Web: www.islington.gov.uk


This post has been edited by sainthalo: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 13:38
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stamfordman
post Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 13:41
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Well that's a result I didn't expect - you obviously confused them enough with what a CEO who almost certainly wasn't Islington said...
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DancingDad
post Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 18:00
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Bang on.
Well done.

I suspect your tale of the CEOs was thought plausible enough to make them think they would lose at adjudication.
Makes you wonder if CEOs from both sides are in the habit of giving duff information ?
Whatever, nice one.
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