Blue Badge Contravention 01, Think I set the incorrect time..... |
Blue Badge Contravention 01, Think I set the incorrect time..... |
Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 14:15
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 103 Joined: 9 Apr 2019 Member No.: 103,347 |
Hi everyone,
I received a PCN today for a contravention 01. The council have not uploaded their photos yet but I am 99.0% sure that I had the incorrect time displayed on my blue badge clock. I am double gutted as I clearly remember setting it to what I thought was the correct time. 12pm but it was on 2pm when I looked at it. I do suffer with cognitive impairment and I was desperate to use the toilet which is also something I am being treated for by a specialist. What do you think would be the best route to take please? Thanks in advance..... |
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Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 14:15
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Sun, 8 Dec 2019 - 10:54
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#61
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Member Group: Members Posts: 103 Joined: 9 Apr 2019 Member No.: 103,347 |
i have been getting a defence together and brushing up on what i need to do and i have learnt a lot. i can see now why you are warning me about it all going wrong, they don't make it easy to transfer the liability do they! wish you would of explained that. anyway, i still stick to my point of if it does go wrong, i will foot the bill...
which box applies to him for sending back the NTO? or should he just send the letter transferring the liability to me? i will post a draught later... |
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Sun, 8 Dec 2019 - 15:29
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#62
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
i have been getting a defence together and brushing up on what i need to do and i have learnt a lot. i can see now why you are warning me about it all going wrong, they don't make it easy to transfer the liability do they! wish you would of explained that. anyway, i still stick to my point of if it does go wrong, i will foot the bill... which box applies to him for sending back the NTO? or should he just send the letter transferring the liability to me? i will post a draught later... You're missing the point. Liability cannot be transferred, this is legally impossible. At best, you can offer to compensate him or pay the penalty on his behalf but that is a private matter between you and him, as far as the council is concerned he's legally liable for the penalty and there is nothing you can do to change this. You need to write a representation on the basis that I previously explained, i.e. asking the council to exercise discretion to cancel on the basis of the council's own policy on the subject. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 8 Dec 2019 - 16:09
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#63
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Member Group: Members Posts: 103 Joined: 9 Apr 2019 Member No.: 103,347 |
i have been getting a defence together and brushing up on what i need to do and i have learnt a lot. i can see now why you are warning me about it all going wrong, they don't make it easy to transfer the liability do they! wish you would of explained that. anyway, i still stick to my point of if it does go wrong, i will foot the bill... which box applies to him for sending back the NTO? or should he just send the letter transferring the liability to me? i will post a draught later... You're missing the point. Liability cannot be transferred, this is legally impossible. At best, you can offer to compensate him or pay the penalty on his behalf but that is a private matter between you and him, as far as the council is concerned he's legally liable for the penalty and there is nothing you can do to change this. You need to write a representation on the basis that I previously explained, i.e. asking the council to exercise discretion to cancel on the basis of the council's own policy on the subject. am i definitely missing the point? i feel very confused again now. it says on the NTO that he can make a representation. i believed he was going to transfer liability to me as the car is a loan/courtesy car that he lends to his customers whilst they are having their vehicles repaired...is that incorrect? |
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Sun, 8 Dec 2019 - 16:17
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#64
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Is he a hire company? and issues hire agreements that comply with
www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/2546/schedule/2/made -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Sun, 8 Dec 2019 - 16:21
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#65
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Member Group: Members Posts: 103 Joined: 9 Apr 2019 Member No.: 103,347 |
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Sun, 8 Dec 2019 - 16:27
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#66
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
he is not a hire company, he is a garage but he does have insurance that covers the courtesy cars. will that suffice? No, liability can only be transferred if: 1) He is a hire company, and 2) Before you hired the car, you signed a hire agreement that complies with all of these requirements: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/2546/schedule/2/made (Note that retrospectively fabricating a backdated agreement now could amount to an offence of forgery or even perverting the course of justice so don't go there). As neither of these requirements are met, it is legally impossible to transfer liability. Therefore the position remains as previously explained, you need a letter of authority allowing you to make representations on this behalf, and you need to draft a representation on the basis that I previously explained, i.e. asking the council to exercise discretion to cancel on the basis of the council's own policy on the subject. This post has been edited by cp8759: Sun, 8 Dec 2019 - 16:27 -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 8 Dec 2019 - 16:29
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#67
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Member Group: Members Posts: 103 Joined: 9 Apr 2019 Member No.: 103,347 |
he is not a hire company, he is a garage but he does have insurance that covers the courtesy cars. will that suffice? No, liability can only be transferred if: 1) He is a hire company, and 2) Before you hired the car, you signed a hire agreement that complies with all of these requirements: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/2546/schedule/2/made (Note that retrospectively fabricating a backdated agreement now could amount to an offence of forgery or even perverting the course of justice so don't go there). As neither of these requirements are met, it is legally impossible to transfer liability. Therefore the position remains as previously explained, you need a letter of authority allowing you to make representations on this behalf, and you need to draft a representation on the basis that I previously explained, i.e. asking the council to exercise discretion to cancel on the basis of the council's own policy on the subject. the letter of authority that we have drawn up is what i have been mistakingly saying is transferring liability as it seems to me that this is what we are doing... |
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Sun, 8 Dec 2019 - 16:31
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#68
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
the letter of authority that we have drawn up is what i have been mistakingly saying is transferring liability as it seems to me that this is what we are doing... The letter of authority is simply allowing the council to consider your representations, without it the council would just write back saying that due to GDPR it cannot take your representations into account. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 8 Dec 2019 - 16:35
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#69
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Member Group: Members Posts: 103 Joined: 9 Apr 2019 Member No.: 103,347 |
the letter of authority that we have drawn up is what i have been mistakingly saying is transferring liability as it seems to me that this is what we are doing... The letter of authority is simply allowing the council to consider your representations, without it the council would just write back saying that due to GDPR it cannot take your representations into account. that's exactly why we have compiled it... do you know which box we should tick? i am guessing it will be "OTHER REASONS" box. do we send the letter of authority and my representation along with the NTO please can you tell me? |
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Sun, 8 Dec 2019 - 18:24
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#70
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
do you know which box we should tick? i am guessing it will be "OTHER REASONS" box. do we send the letter of authority and my representation along with the NTO please can you tell me? Yes it's "OTHER REASONS" and you need to send the LOA with the NTO. Post a draft of your representations on here before sending anything. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 8 Dec 2019 - 20:55
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#71
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Member Group: Members Posts: 103 Joined: 9 Apr 2019 Member No.: 103,347 |
this is it so far....
Dear L Council, This is my formal challenge in relation to PCN: I am not the registered keeper of the vehicle but I was the driver at the time of the contravention. I arrived at (name of road) on (date) to attend a nearby dental appointment to have a denture fitting scheduled for 12.10 pm. I arrived in plenty of time but I was desperate to use the toilet, I suffer with a weak bladder and I am awaiting surgery to rectify this problem. As I was in a terrible hurry to use the toilet, I did not set the correct time on my blue badge clock. I left the car believing that I had displayed the correct time. Unfortunately, I had made a mistake and instead of setting the time to 15 minutes either side of 12, I set it between 1 and 2. I believe the mistake I made was to assume that the 1 and the 2 were 12 and as you can see from the photo I set the clock on what I thought was 12. I arrived back to the vehicle within half an hour at approximately 12.30pm to find I had been issued with a PCN. I would like to add that I was not causing any obstruction, I did display a valid blue badge and I did not go beyond the 3-hour time limit, in fact I returned before the time I had set on the clock. I appealed to the council and after stating my case, my appeal was rejected. I am disappointed by this rejection as I believe the council have demonstrated a lack of due regard for the facts in my case. I acknowledged that the PCN was correctly given and apologised for the simple honest mistake of setting my blue badge clock incorrectly when feeling quite stressed, which I explained is not something I make a habit of doing. My apology was not addressed and my mitigating circumstances were dismissed with a single line: “Although I sympathise with you, we do not cancel PCNs if drivers stop to find a toilet, and running late for an appointment.” I would like to point out that stopping to find a toilet and running late for an appointment played no part at all in my case. I clearly stated in my representation that I arrived in time for a nearby appointment. “I arrived at 12pm in time for a nearby dentist appointment at 12.10pm”. Proof of my medical conditions, and especially my bladder problem, were not addressed at all. I do not need to restate my mitigating circumstances because the council have stated that they have carefully considered what I had to say, and because the council have been clear to me that they do not cancel PCNs if drivers need to find a toilet. In light of that clear statement I reasonably believe that despite the statutory duty to consider mitigating circumstances, even if on appeal I were to offer intimate reasons why the desperate need for a toilet made me feel quite stressed and attributed to the confusion of setting the clock, the council has already excluded a favourable outcome, which I really believe is quite unlawful. As I have never received a PCN for this type of contravention, I believe it is Lewisham Council’s policy to accept representations and therefore it could have been possible for them to exercise discretion in this case. I am a local disabled lady who is suffering with a long term medical condition which is a greatly affected by stress. Since the council have decided to pursue me for this contravention, I have suffered with undue stress and anxiety. The council failed to address my apology for making a mistake, nor did they consider or mention the fact that I have never received a contravention of this type. This makes me feel worthless and overlooked. I believe the council have failed to consider and to have regard for their own policy guidance. If it is decided not to cancel this PCN then I require the council to fully explain why they think my rights under the Equality Act 2010 do not merit cancellation of the penalty charge. I would expect under government fairness guidance and particularly in the case of a disabled driver that you would exercise discretion for a first contravention of this nature When considering my challenge, I trust the council will have regard to my disability and their statutory obligation under the Equality Act 2010 to take my disability into account when considering my challenge. I have enclosed relevant documents including a copy of my dental appointment text reminder, a copy of the photo taken by the parking officer of my blue badge clock, medical evidence of my conditions and my original appeal letter to the council. I hope you can understand that I made a genuine mistake and this is not something I am in the habit of doing. I do realise that the PCN was issued correctly and that I incorrectly set the clock. This was an honest mistake and one I do not intend to make again. Thank you for your time in considering this challenge. I look forward to your reply. Yours sincerely, |
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Sun, 8 Dec 2019 - 21:43
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#72
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
this is it so far.... Dear L Council, This is my formal challenge in relation to PCN: I am not the registered keeper of the vehicle but I was the driver at the time of the contravention. I make representations on behalf of and with the authority of the RK ( authority enclosed) I make these representations as the driver at the time of contravention I arrived at (name of road) on (date) to attend a nearby dental appointment to have a denture fitting scheduled for 12.10 pm. I arrived in plenty of time but I was desperate to use the toilet, I suffer with a weak bladder and I am awaiting surgery to rectify this problem. As I was in a terrible hurry to use the toilet, I did not set the correct time on my blue badge clock. I left the car believing that I had displayed the correct time. Unfortunately, I had made a mistake and instead of setting the time to 15 minutes either side of 12, I set it between 1 and 2. I believe the mistake I made was to assume that the 1 and the 2 were 12 and as you can see from the photo I set the clock on what I thought was 12. I arrived back to the vehicle within half an hour at approximately 12.30pm to find I had been issued with a PCN. I would like to add that I was not causing any obstruction, I did display a valid blue badge and I did not go beyond the 3-hour time limit, in fact I returned before the time I had set on the clock. I appealed to the council and after stating my case, my appeal was rejected. I am disappointed by this rejection as I believe the council have demonstrated a lack of due regard for the facts in my case. I acknowledged that the PCN was correctly given and apologised for the simple honest mistake of setting my blue badge clock incorrectly when feeling quite stressed, which I explained is not something I make a habit of doing. My apology was not addressed and my mitigating circumstances were dismissed with a single line: “Although I sympathise with you, we do not cancel PCNs if drivers stop to find a toilet, and running late for an appointment.” I would like to point out that stopping to find a toilet and running late for an appointment played no part at all in my case. I clearly stated in my representation that I arrived in time for a nearby appointment. “I arrived at 12pm in time for a nearby dentist appointment at 12.10pm”. Proof of my medical conditions, and especially my bladder problem, were not addressed at all. I do not need to restate my mitigating circumstances because the council have stated that they have carefully considered what I had to say, and because the council have been clear to me that they do not cancel PCNs if drivers need to find a toilet. In light of that clear statement I reasonably believe that despite the statutory duty to consider mitigating circumstances, even if on appeal I were to offer intimate reasons why the desperate need for a toilet made me feel quite stressed and attributed to the confusion of setting the clock, the council has already excluded a favourable outcome, which I really believe is quite unlawful. As I have never received a PCN for this type of contravention, I believe it is Lewisham Council’s policy to accept representations and therefore it could have been possible for them to exercise discretion in this case. I am a local disabled lady who is suffering with a long term medical condition which is a greatly affected by stress. Since the council have decided to pursue me for this contravention, I have suffered with undue stress and anxiety. The council failed to address my apology for making a mistake, nor did they consider or mention the fact that I have never received a contravention of this type. This makes me feel worthless and overlooked. I believe the council have failed to consider and to have regard for their own policy guidance. If it is decided not to cancel this PCN then I require the council to fully explain why they think my rights under the Equality Act 2010 do not merit cancellation of the penalty charge. I would expect under government fairness guidance and particularly in the case of a disabled driver that you would exercise discretion for a first contravention of this nature When considering my challenge, I trust the council will have regard to my disability and their statutory obligation under the Equality Act 2010 to take my disability into account when considering my challenge. I have enclosed relevant documents including a copy of my dental appointment text reminder, a copy of the photo taken by the parking officer of my blue badge clock, medical evidence of my conditions and my original appeal letter to the council. I hope you can understand that I made a genuine mistake and this is not something I am in the habit of doing. I do realise that the PCN was issued correctly and that I incorrectly set the clock. This was an honest mistake and one I do not intend to make again. Thank you for your time in considering this challenge. I look forward to your reply. Yours sincerely, Take out the red and add in the green that I suggest you use. Your only part in this as driver is as witness to what happened don't go beyond that This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Sun, 8 Dec 2019 - 21:44 -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Mon, 9 Dec 2019 - 23:04
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#73
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Member Group: Members Posts: 103 Joined: 9 Apr 2019 Member No.: 103,347 |
Thank you so much. I shall get it all in the post tomorrow...
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Sat, 8 Feb 2020 - 11:45
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#74
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Member Group: Members Posts: 103 Joined: 9 Apr 2019 Member No.: 103,347 |
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