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PCN 624 Greenwich, help
justanotherPCN
post Mon, 20 May 2019 - 23:09
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Hi,

Looking for some advice with a couple of PCN's lovingly stuck to my windscreen today.

First off, yes, probably stupid trying to park where I did, Sunday, in a rush, not to familiar with the area and didn't believe I was causing an obstruction and couldn't see any parking restrictions... (Had planned to move the car at the end of the day but 12 hours on my feet got the better of me hence the second note the next morning having not returned to see the first....). Bit of an expensive lesson on London parking rules I guess, but I don't believe I was parked on a footway as the PCN details.

Second, question: Can two PCN's be issued within a 24h period for the 'same' contravention (vehicle having not moved in-between both been issues... that's the bit that grates...)? Are there ground for appealing the second on the basis it's the same contravention? There 'evidence' will corroborate this.


Thirdly looking for some advice on the PCN('s) If I had though it was a restricted area I would have though twice.. but having noticed people parking there on the odd occasion i've been in the area in the past I had assumed it was ok to...


Contravention 624
'Parked with one or more Wheeles on or over the footpath or any part of a road other than a carriageway (all wheels on footway)'

1/ The area is most definitely not a footway imo (thus can't have had 4 wheels over a footway) and I would argue is most definitely 'carriage way' due to been meant for vehicles (it leads to the river to ultimately give vehicles access to the rivers edge...), thus not 'other than a carriageway'

Taken from the Oxford English Dictionary:
carriageway
1.1 The part of a road intended for vehicles rather than pedestrians.



2/ There are no parking restrictions on the area in question as far as I can see, double yellows stop before it?? And the contravention does not mention parking restrictions anyway??

3/ Cant find any mention of the road named on the PCN anywhere, only a different road name.
If it is correct the 'road' can only be '45meters in length... as the other side of the pedestrian crossing area is called something different...?

4/ Do they have to provide any proof it is council, and not private, land? Or is that on me to look into?


Obviously I need to get any appeal off pronto, does doing that extend the 'discount' period or do I need a reply from them within the 14days?

Any help and advice (obviously don't try and park there again is not needed ohmy.gifp ) appreciated on this. Right, some reading to do here!

Cheers,

matt



Attached:

Copies of PCN 1

ibb.co/WyxMnyt
ibb.co/HFnkVLT


Copies of PCN 2

ibb.co/98ZK7R7
ibb.co/DD9wrTD


Image of the area and parking location, show it's not (imo) a footway and where a footway does crosses the roadway etc.

ibb.co/XS0kdJb
ibb.co/J57sP9x
ibb.co/KxKMrhM
ibb.co/b26c0pW
ibb.co/Pm6bg4j
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post Mon, 20 May 2019 - 23:09
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Incandescent
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 07:08
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None of your links work.
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Starworshipper12
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 07:12
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And when you sort them out, please include council pics and GSV.
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justanotherPCN
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 09:59
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Sorry, needs:

https://

To the front for the url, should then work (I should have mentioned), let me know if that doesn't work.


Need to read up on how to post GSV links, in the mean time postcode SE10 0TW will get you there on googleearth, the area is at the end of Tunnel Avenue as it goes in to the river... (and quite obvious from the pictures, if the url's works).

What are the council pics requested (new to this, have always been extra careful on the odd occasion parking in London and slipped up on this occasion..... )?


Also one thing I have noticed this morning is that the PCN mentions 'DRAW DOCK ROAD', which I can not find a mention of, but I can find a 'Drawdock Road' in the same place, is a miss spelling, if indeed a miss-spelling, enough of a technicality?

Regards,

m

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stamfordman
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 10:12
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No one is going to mess about with yoru URLs - paste in the full URL. better still grab the embed BBcode as that displays the pics here.
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justanotherPCN
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 10:15
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Street View link (hopefully):

Https://

goo.gl/maps/qnC3zcFxiigaphJs5


No issue with posting the URL's, but that's all the photo hosting gave me a links to them, do they still not work (may be they work for me because i'm logged in to the site, but I have checked in a different browser and they came up).

Regards,

m
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rosturra
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 10:27
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GSV
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stamfordman
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 10:33
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It's easy - I did this one in 2 secs but I'm not doing all of them for you. Just go to each image, look below for embed code, and copy and paste the full BBCode link - there's a copy button by each link.

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justanotherPCN
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 10:46
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Sorry though the links posted weren't working, hence no point in copying the BBcode... looks like the are though?!













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Starworshipper12
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 11:23
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And the council pics?
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 12:06
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There a reasonable argument that where you parked is actually carriageway and or there is a legitimate expectation that parking there is allowed


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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justanotherPCN
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 12:24
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Council pic's? How do I get these, I can only see a 'pay' or 'challenge' link on Greenwich councils website


Couple more questions:

Would I be right in assuming that the contravention code: 624 means contravention 62, and the 4 relating to 4 wheels in alleged contravention, (as in over a footway or any other part of a road other than a carriageway)?

The Contravention states in brackets ' (all four wheels on footway) ' is this a standard text for this contravention, or had this been added after observation by the CEO and forms a strict part of the alleged contravention? Because if so I would think any evidence clearly shows that there are in fact NO wheels on a footway?? I can't see how they can claim a road way of any kind is a foodway??

Regards,

m

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 21 May 2019 - 13:06) *
There a reasonable argument that where you parked is actually carriageway and or there is a legitimate expectation that parking there is allowed


This is exactly why I tried parking there on this occasion, it is certainly not a path or footway and has no yellow lines or other parking restriction notices (there is a footpath that crosses, very clearly with bollards either side to stop vehicles accessing it, but I took great care note to obstruct and left good distance) and which is why I am a little aggrieved to have had there stick notes on my windscreen on return...

Regards,

m

This post has been edited by justanotherPCN: Tue, 21 May 2019 - 12:25
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 12:46
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Council photos may be online or you may have to ask for them but we cannot advise without them


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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stamfordman
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 12:48
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QUOTE (justanotherPCN @ Tue, 21 May 2019 - 13:24) *
Council pic's? How do I get these, I can only see a 'pay' or 'challenge' link on Greenwich councils website



pics are often on these links, esp challenge. just login.
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justanotherPCN
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 14:34
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Couldn't see anything without clicking to far through, which i didn't want to do at this (uninformed) point.

Am I likely going to need to submit a basic formal appeal first? If so how much does this need to be and is is like the private parking companies , where they just largely ignore first appeals (i.e. don't put to much time in to it)?

Tried the 'parking' email addy and got an auto reply saying due to high volumes enquiries about PCN's are not replied to........

m
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cp8759
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 17:36
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QUOTE (justanotherPCN @ Tue, 21 May 2019 - 15:34) *
Couldn't see anything without clicking to far through, which i didn't want to do at this (uninformed) point.

You need to click through and get hold of the pictures. As long as you haven't put your card number in (and thus aren't at risk of accidentally paying) you've not gone too far.

We can't really say what's what without seeing what evidence they have.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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justanotherPCN
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 06:05
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 21 May 2019 - 18:36) *
QUOTE (justanotherPCN @ Tue, 21 May 2019 - 15:34) *
Couldn't see anything without clicking to far through, which i didn't want to do at this (uninformed) point.

You need to click through and get hold of the pictures. As long as you haven't put your card number in (and thus aren't at risk of accidentally paying) you've not gone too far.

We can't really say what's what without seeing what evidence they have.



The 'pay now' link wants card details on the second page, no evidence there.

Other option is to make an appeal (or in there words why it's 'unfair'), hence the above question of how important is the first 'appeal' and what should or should not be included in? Obviously I don't want to click through without adding anything just in case I lose the chance to make the initial appeal....

Regards,

m
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Starworshipper12
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 06:59
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QUOTE (justanotherPCN)
Tried the 'parking' email addy and got an auto reply saying due to high volumes enquiries about PCN's are not replied to........


Are you sure it said that? I just emailed the same address and got the following in the auto reply:

‘Due to the high number of enquiries received to this mailbox, we may not be able to respond immediately but your email has been safely received and will be answered as soon as possible’

Perhaps wait a little? I’ll let you know if I get a response.
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justanotherPCN
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 07:42
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QUOTE (Starworshipper12 @ Wed, 22 May 2019 - 07:59) *
QUOTE (justanotherPCN)
Tried the 'parking' email addy and got an auto reply saying due to high volumes enquiries about PCN's are not replied to........


Are you sure it said that? I just emailed the same address and got the following in the auto reply:

‘Due to the high number of enquiries received to this mailbox, we may not be able to respond immediately but your email has been safely received and will be answered as soon as possible’

Perhaps wait a little? I’ll let you know if I get a response.



If I have understood it correctly, yes. A few lines down it says:

'Parking enforcement requests are forwarded to the Enforcement team to arrange a visit as soon as resources allow. We regret, due to the volume of requests, that we are not able to answer or provide feedback for Parking Enforcement requests. If you require feedback, please telephone our Contact Centre to report illegal parking where you will be given a unique reference number to enable you to call back for feedback.'

However, I may have miss interpreted 'Parking Enforcement requests' as related to an enquiry into an enforcement matter (such as mine).

Regards,

m
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Starworshipper12
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 07:50
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Yes that address relates to requesting a CEO to attend to issue a ticket for illegal parking.

Use this one:

parking@royalgreenwich.gov.uk

This post has been edited by Starworshipper12: Wed, 22 May 2019 - 07:51
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