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PCN - Residents Parking - Inadequate/No Signage
wanderlustre
post Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 08:53
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Hi all,

Apologies if this has already been discussed to death etc. I did have a search but I couldn't find advice on my particular query.

I am currently at the NtO stage of contesting a PCN received in Liverpool from Knowsley Council. I have appealed via email only to have it rejected. I received the PCN in late January.

I parked on a road called The Rooley. The road I turned off of (Blacklow Brow) to enter The Rooley had a small yellow sign saying it was restricted parking, hence why I turned off it. I then entered The Rooley, there were no signs as I entered nor where there any in sight on the road. I walked a couple of meters up and down the road to check even.

When I returned I had a PCN. I took lots of photos of my car in situ, clearly showing absolutely no signs in sight. They rejected the appeal by sending similar photo of my car featuring no signs and a close up of a sign with no information as to where this sign was.

I once again challenged this decision. I asked where the sign was and how I was reasonably supposed to have seen it. They replied that they had nothing further to add.

I spoke to someone over the phone about it and was told there is signage if you enter the road from the other end. This road entry is over 350 meters from where I parked and completely out of sight from where I was. There is a small sign on the road that I turned off of (Blacklow Brow) but in no way is it positioned or contains details to suggest that it applies to any road other than the one it is placed on.

In short, there are zero repeater signs along the road I was on and I did not enter the road via the entrance which has the signs. Surely this is inadequate signage?

Any advice would be appreciated. I'm not sure I have the original PCN anymore but I do have copies of their correspondence to me since.

This post has been edited by wanderlustre: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 08:54
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post Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 08:53
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stamfordman
post Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 09:21
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We need to see correspondence, pics and a google street view link.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like. Posting BBCode links as available on imgbb displays pics inline on the forum.
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wanderlustre
post Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 10:58
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Apologies!

Here are photos of my car:

https://ibb.co/0cRrGkt
https://ibb.co/QkLsRYD
https://ibb.co/QFwZv10
https://ibb.co/QvYK5j1
https://ibb.co/Xzrt1y6
https://ibb.co/8NCyD17
https://ibb.co/CM39KTy

Here is the correspondence I've received:

https://ibb.co/k9Z8Kc7
https://ibb.co/61pdktZ
https://ibb.co/xGddssb

Google Street View:

Signage at one entrance of the road: here
Where I was parked: here
Other entrance to road: here

I don't think I have the original PCN (my partner tidied it up for it to never be seen again) but I will double check when I'm home from work.

Anything else of use I can provide?
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stamfordman
post Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 11:43
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Well you would have passed signs on Blacklow Brow?

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4085667,-2....3312!8i6656

But council has I think wrongly mixed a single yellow with this zone along this road which is misleading. It sets up a 24/7 permit zone but not on the single yellow. However, you parked where you are supposed to have a permit.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4085737,-2....3312!8i6656

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 12:16
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wanderlustre
post Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 12:29
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I must have done but I was concentrating on finding a road without any signs on it as I thought the road themselves would be marked with whether they were restricted or not. The road I parked on didn't have any signs itself so I thought that meant no restrictions.

Is this just my mistake then or is there a case that there was unclear signage as the road itself was devoid of any?
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 13:00
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Yellow lines are legal within a permit bay. permit holders need to comply with the restrictions.

You could argue that there is a lack of repeater signs, these are not a requirement of the TSRGD 2016 but the council are required to comply with regulation 18 of the local authorities traffic orders (procedures) regulations 1996 that require that signage is adequate to inform of the restriction

This case lends support

2190070109 and 2160175899

The rejection is also flawed it two respects. It states the signs are compliant with TSRGD 2002 (as amended) this is not so the permit zone sign needed a special authorisation until the repeal of the 2002 regs to be replaced with the 2016 ones The also breach their common law duty not to fetter their discretion by stating they are unable to cancel. That is not true, They can at any time for any reason cancel



These arguments may succeed, but you would need to take them to the tribunal for a decision the council will not accept them


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stamfordman
post Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 13:08
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 13:00) *
Yellow lines are legal within a permit bay. permit holders need to comply with the restrictions.



point of info - I presume the permit zone overrides the yellow line - i.e. a non-permit holder will get ticketed on the yellow when not in force.
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wanderlustre
post Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 14:07
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I'm confused by the talk of yellow lines. I wasn't parked on a yellow line. I was parked on an unmarked piece of road just ahead of a white line marking the entrance to someone's driveway. The gutter is quite shiny in the photos which may look like a line. This photo shows it a bit better: https://ibb.co/Xzrt1y6

This post has been edited by wanderlustre: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 14:08
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stamfordman
post Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 14:11
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You said you were put off from parking where the yellow line (or sign) was but the key is the entry signs to the zone and whether any repeaters should be there especially in large area with various turnings.
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Neil B
post Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 16:52
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QUOTE (wanderlustre @ Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 14:07) *
I'm confused by the talk of yellow lines. I wasn't parked on a yellow line.

Part of what we do here is to continually enhance our knowledge and share it; none of us knows everything.
I think Stamf raised it because it's unusual to see it in such a zone. We've another member who, iirc, has
always opined that it can't be.
It's a side discussion -- akin to research.

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 13:08) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 13:00) *
Yellow lines are legal within a permit bay. permit holders need to comply with the restrictions.



point of info - I presume the permit zone overrides the yellow line - i.e. a non-permit holder will get ticketed on the yellow when not in force.

Agreed but it seems to make no sense, serving no obvious purpose, other tha, possibly, a matter of daytime traffic flow?

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 14:11) *
You said you were put off from parking where the yellow line (or sign) was

So maybe this IS a factor; misleading.



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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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DancingDad
post Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 17:12
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If I may on Yellow Lines
Restricted parking zones cannot have yellow lines within the zone. Can have bay markings.
Permit parking zones can have yellow lines. But cannot have bay markings for permit holders.

Both inventions of the Devil IMO along with CPZs.

This case is a good example of the failure of signage to adequately convey the restriction.
OP is looking for somewhere to park, finds a road with no sign at the entrance or any overt parking restrictions except for some yellow lines.
Seems to have missed an entry sign someway before they may have even been looking for parking.
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 17:43
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See 13.10 t0 13.10.5 here

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/go...-chapter-03.pdf


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stamfordman
post Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 19:43
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 16:52) *
Agreed but it seems to make no sense, serving no obvious purpose, other tha, possibly, a matter of daytime traffic flow?



Well at the end of the road is a dead end serving Huyton rail station so I'm sure there is a traffic reason for keeping one side clear.
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 20:17
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I think the guidance of the TSM ( not used it for a while and didn't know it had been updated) lends itself to a no repeaters argument as it mentions the potential for confusion with other markings


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wanderlustre
post Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 20:56
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So is my best argument for my appeal the lack of repeater signs (i.e. that there wasnt a single one on the road I was parked on) and that the entry signs stating the restriction are some distance away from where I parked?
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stamfordman
post Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 21:16
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I think it's a cheapskate zone - what, the authority must have spent all of £1,000 on some basic entry signs and that's it, leaving yellow lines in place. This will catch out people who encounter such zones for the first time or even those who do know if they miss the entry signs.

Clearly around a station there is a need to control parking but this is a poor effort.
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cp8759
post Sat, 23 Mar 2019 - 22:33
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As a secondary point, there's an issue around fettered discretion in the rejection letter, i.e. "unable to cancel". This should be raised at the NtO stage as the council are unlikely to deal with it properly, and that in itself would be a procedural impropriety.


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No, I am not a lawyer.
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hcandersen
post Sun, 24 Mar 2019 - 08:49
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IMO, not a chance.

The 'unable..' is clearly within the context of 'the circumstances you described'.

The facts appear to be that the OP drove into the road and passed a permit parking area sign which carries the following meaning:

an area—
(a)into which each entrance for vehicular traffic has been indicated by the sign provided for at item 5 of the sign table in Part 3 of Schedule 5; and
(b)where any parking place within that area reserved for the use of the permit holders as indicated on that sign is not shown by markings on the road (whether or not an upright sign is placed next to, or near, such a parking place to indicate that only the permit holders in question may use the place)


Whether somewhere is a 'parking place' can only be determined by reference to the order....Alexa, tell me the provisions of the ..........Order!

So a motorist is left to assume that any length of road not otherwise marked by a traffic sign is a parking place. But it still lies with the authority to prove this.

OP, you say you drove into Rooley from Blackbrow. You refer to unrelated signs in Blackbrow but not PPA signs at the entrance to Rooley. And this is where your account breaks down. The photos seem to show you parked facing Blackbrow, not away from it. And you were no more than 70 or so metres from the junction, so where does the repeater sign argument come from? You refer to the signs in the council's letter being 300+ metres away. But were there PPA signs at the entrance to Rooley and did you pass them?

We need a clear answer and also why your car was facing in the opposite direction.

An adj would ask the same, so let's get all the facts on the table before they do.

In any event, I think you are safe and would win at adjudication unless I've misread something:

The NTO is dated 17 March and posted the same day.

The 17 March was a Sunday.

The NTO is invalid.

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wanderlustre
post Sun, 24 Mar 2019 - 19:44
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I drove into the The Rooley from Blacklow Brow and originally turned again into Harrison Hey. But just as I turned into this road I saw a sign stating that road was resident parking only so I turned back out of it and parked up on The Rooley (facing the Blacklow Brow entrance).

Before I originally turned into The Rooley I had driven down the next road (The Orchard) which had yellow lines for some of it before they stopped. The rest of the road had no signs but I decided to turn back as I was getting further away from where I wanted to be. That's when I turned back onto Blacklow Brow. What I'm trying to say is I drove up and down quite a few roads checking for signs before I decided to park where I did. I avoided all the ones that had signage and parked in one that didn't. This process tool me 5-10 minutes so I'd completely lost track of the restricted parking zone signs before I eventually parked. However, I never entered The Rooley from the Taebock Road end at any time (where the big Resident Parking signs are).
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cp8759
post Mon, 25 Mar 2019 - 18:57
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 24 Mar 2019 - 08:49) *
IMO, not a chance.

The 'unable..' is clearly within the context of 'the circumstances you described'.

In the circumstances as described, the council has a power to cancel the penalty, because the council can cancel in any circumstances, so it is not "unable to cancel". Of course, the council can decide not to cancel, but that is quite different from being unable to do so in the first place.

Regardless, if this is raised in a formal representation, there's a 50/50 chance the council won't deal with the point at all in the Notice of Rejection, that would be a clear-cut procedural impropriety.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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