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Bus Lane NEWHAM
mystroe
post Sat, 25 Aug 2018 - 19:12
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Brief summary- received PCN for bus lane. Appealed on grounds that signs for restrictions lacking. 3 months later Newham respond that signs are fine..

All replies with definitive and concise appeal grounds welcomed.

I don't doubt quite a few motorists have paid up for similar PCNs at this spot.

This post has been edited by mystroe: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 - 19:13
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post Sat, 25 Aug 2018 - 19:12
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stamfordman
post Mon, 27 Aug 2018 - 21:38
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You can see the sign on the street view link I posted. We have a time machine. You can see the entire post or both signs on the post have been turned 90 degrees, possibly a result of removing the tree.
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mystroe
post Mon, 27 Aug 2018 - 21:41
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 27 Aug 2018 - 22:08) *
We respond as we see fit to be of use to you and others reading.
You will find numerous mentions, from many members, across the forum, of applying the correct terminology.
In general, we encourage the use of the words used in legislation, for each stage of the process, for the sake of uniform clarity.
That is for the benefit of you, those helping and any other readers.

Dictating how I should respond, ditto the member earlier or anyone else, is unlikely to garner good responses.

PS drop the costs mention.


We? I think you can only speak for yourself here Neil. With regards to "the benefit of you" most of your responses are very low on this scale. All well and good getting the terminology right, but overlooking the main body of the challenge in exchange for semantic labels is hardly encouraging. I couldn't help thinking you feel I should just pay up and stop throwing my hands in the air.
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southpaw82
post Mon, 27 Aug 2018 - 22:39
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QUOTE (mystroe @ Mon, 27 Aug 2018 - 22:41) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 27 Aug 2018 - 22:08) *
We respond as we see fit to be of use to you and others reading.
You will find numerous mentions, from many members, across the forum, of applying the correct terminology.
In general, we encourage the use of the words used in legislation, for each stage of the process, for the sake of uniform clarity.
That is for the benefit of you, those helping and any other readers.

Dictating how I should respond, ditto the member earlier or anyone else, is unlikely to garner good responses.

PS drop the costs mention.


We? I think you can only speak for yourself here Neil. With regards to "the benefit of you" most of your responses are very low on this scale. All well and good getting the terminology right, but overlooking the main body of the challenge in exchange for semantic labels is hardly encouraging. I couldn't help thinking you feel I should just pay up and stop throwing my hands in the air.

Look, you don’t get to dictate how people respond to your posts, so long as it’s within the rules. Knock it off.


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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 28 Aug 2018 - 00:45
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I know, Neil knows and so do others the regulations regarding the signage, Do You? Ask for, and receive, then take the advice offered. Your choice


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mystroe
post Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 17:32
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To summarise then:

1.Quote and directly challenge their phrase asserting the signs are in place
2.Lose request for covering expenses at Representations stage
3.Lose note about relieving congestion
4.Take picture of twisted sign and tell them sign is twisted - or - continue with sign is missing
5.Ask for accuracy on cameras and clock calibration
6.Lose "Dear" and "Sincerely"
7.Other missing signs for mention (please identify)

Would welcome thoughts on point 4.

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stamfordman
post Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 18:03
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Well you know my view but we don't always agree on approaches - even the seasoned posters. That's what makes the forum interesting.

I would also point out that you tried 'shouldn't there be signage' in your challenge.

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mystroe
post Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 18:22
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 19:03) *
Well you know my view but we don't always agree on approaches - even the seasoned posters. That's what makes the forum interesting.

I would also point out that you tried 'shouldn't there be signage' in your challenge.


I take that on board, but if I pursue that line, it substantiates their claim that "there is signage"
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Neil B
post Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 18:41
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QUOTE (mystroe @ Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 18:32) *
7.Other missing signs for mention (please identify)

GSV, (historic), start of the bus lane - none?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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mystroe
post Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 19:23
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 19:41) *
QUOTE (mystroe @ Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 18:32) *
7.Other missing signs for mention (please identify)

GSV, (historic), start of the bus lane - none?


Alternative to GSV (Google Street View)

Video recorded 28/05/18
Link:
Stretch of Romford Road Video

Alleged contravention 15/05/18

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Incandescent
post Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 21:10
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OP, if you are sure of your case, and from what I read, you are so, having actually bothered to go out and video the street, then take them all the way to adjudication on the signage issue, it is your absolute right to do so under the enforcement process. Of course the full PCN penalty will be in play, but sometimes one has to ignore the siren call of the discount.
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mystroe
post Thu, 30 Aug 2018 - 06:21
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 22:10) *
OP, if you are sure of your case, and from what I read, you are so, having actually bothered to go out and video the street, then take them all the way to adjudication on the signage issue, it is your absolute right to do so under the enforcement process. Of course the full PCN penalty will be in play, but sometimes one has to ignore the siren call of the discount.

Thanks Incandescent, well I was absolutely sure, that's why I didn't come on the forum prior to making my first appeal. After not hearing back for 3 months I thought they'd quietly forgotten about it.
3 months later and that stretch of road is still well below par for signage. Partly why I'm so frustrated and surprised about the lack of empathy on here is - how many other motorists have been paying up along this stretch without making any representations?

By going to adjudication, can this open the door to investigating other cases in this time period? Or would that be more likely in a utopia?

Would be good to hear thoughts on how if a bus lane doesn't comply with a traffic order, can it be enforced?
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Incandescent
post Thu, 30 Aug 2018 - 07:44
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QUOTE
Or would that be more likely in a utopia?

Correct
Every adjudicated case stands alone in law, as adjudicators are not "courts of record", but previous cases can be put forward in individual appeals where the circumstances were the same or similar. I'm afraid you are not going to rock the boat with your case, but will at least have personal satisfaction that you fought your corner, win or lose. Bus lanes are a "nice little earner" for councils because enforcement is very cheap, and in London at least, the penalties are outrageously high, double those in the rest of the UK. The law does need changing on bus lanes IMHO, to put in some minimum standards for bus frequency,, and also to allow appeals based on no obstruction to the passage of a bus. However, until a lot of MPs start getting walloped, the situation will not change.

Good luck with your appeal, but I doubt you will win, but there is always a chance.
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Neil B
post Thu, 30 Aug 2018 - 11:35
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QUOTE (mystroe @ Thu, 30 Aug 2018 - 07:21) *
Partly why I'm so frustrated and surprised about the lack of empathy on here

I haven't understood this since your perception became apparent early on.
I can't see a single negative response anywhere in the thread.
Not sure what you expect other than the confirmations already posted that you were apparently not in
contravention?

It's Newham; nothing surprises us in a Newham case. I think most members' reaction to them is rolleyes.gif and a shrug.

3 months is currently par for the course as is the ludicrous response of F Hussain.

Rather than concerning yourself with your perception that members are not dancing around waving flags
in support why not start by making a list of all the things in your favour.

---

Re the video:
I mentioned the start of the bus lane but you've started further on.
I first thought both signs were missing but there is one shown a little way after the start.
I can't see the 'lead-in' sign at all (@ sign bods, is the sign still required at the beginning of the taper under 2016?)


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Incandescent
post Thu, 30 Aug 2018 - 12:10
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QUOTE
It's Newham; nothing surprises us in a Newham case. I think most members' reaction to them is rolleyes.gif and a shrug.

Actually, I'd like to see them boiled in oil (metaphorically speaking, of course !!)
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mystroe
post Thu, 30 Aug 2018 - 19:11
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 27 Aug 2018 - 23:39) *
Knock it off.

There will always be plenty who shrug their shoulders and sigh.. even try and quell an injustice. Let us not rely on them. They have lost vigour, like a tired judge yawning in trial.
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Neil B
post Thu, 30 Aug 2018 - 20:32
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QUOTE (mystroe @ Thu, 30 Aug 2018 - 20:11) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 27 Aug 2018 - 23:39) *
Knock it off.

There will always be plenty who shrug their shoulders and sigh.. even try and quell an injustice. Let us not rely on them. They have lost vigour, like a tired judge yawning in trial.

So you presume.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Mad Mick V
post Thu, 30 Aug 2018 - 21:11
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Interesting thread, I like the OP's insouciant style as though the penalty is a mere afterthought. It's a change from the pensioners and single mums where penalties of this nature come as a body blow.
Perhaps the OP needs to quote the legislation relevant to traffic signs and their upkeep (my bold):-
The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996
Traffic signs

18.—(1) Where an order relating to any road has been made, the order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to secure—

(a)before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;

(b)the maintenance of such signs for so long as the order remains in force; and

©in a case where the order revokes, amends or alters the application of a previous order, the removal or replacement of existing traffic signs as the authority considers requisite to avoid confusion to road users by signs being left in the wrong positions.

Mick
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mystroe
post Thu, 30 Aug 2018 - 22:38
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Thu, 30 Aug 2018 - 22:11) *
It's a change from the pensioners and single mums where penalties of this nature come as a body blow.
[/b]
Mick

Glad to provide some entertainment.

Once a traffic warden..
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mystroe
post Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 18:15
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Just received a charge certificate via a postal redirection.

So charge certificate destination address is different to vehicle registration address, and different to the address that they sent the response to my appeal (above)

Certainly didn't receive an NTO.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 18:27
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And what have you done and what have you recieved from the council since 30th of August


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