Bus Lane fine from 12 Dec 2017 |
Bus Lane fine from 12 Dec 2017 |
Thu, 19 Jul 2018 - 17:00
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 19 Jul 2018 Member No.: 98,981 |
Hi,
First post so hopefully I'm posting in the right section. On the 31th May 2018 I received a Penalty Charge Notice from Oldham Council for allegedly going into a bus lane. The alleged infringement occurred on 12th December 2017 and the PCN was 29th May. The car is a lease so I contacted the leasing company who informed me they forwarded my details to Oldham council on the 29th December (I assume the letter would have arrived after the 3rd/4th Jan at the latest). Anyway armed with this, I appealed the notice on the basis that it took them so long to send me the notice and that I genuinely cannot remember why I was even in Oldham! Anyway, i hoped that common sense would prevail and that they would understand it's difficult to appeal a notice given I can't remember what happened or why I drove in the bus lane etc. I've returned from holiday to the attached letter. Hoping for any advice on taking this to a Independent Adjudicator, is this worth doing in this instance? I just feel that it's unfair they've waited from Jan to end of May to send the notice out and expect me to remember why I drove in the bus lane. Any advice would be much appropriated. Thanks |
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Thu, 19 Jul 2018 - 17:00
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Thu, 19 Jul 2018 - 19:35
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Lets see all of all documents
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Thu, 19 Jul 2018 - 20:10
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20,919 Joined: 22 Apr 2012 Member No.: 54,455 |
Lets see all of all documents +1 The law is quite clear, they have 28 days from receipt of the address of yourself from the hire company to issue a new PCN and cancel the old one. Clearly they have failed in this, and are trying it on. However you must be able to prove that they were provided with your address at the date you mention. The biggest problem in all this decriminalised enforcement is that there are no penalties at all on them for acting unlawfully. It's probably the biggest hole in the whole regime. What is needed is a regulator who can impose swingeing penalties on councils that do this, including taking the decision takers to a criminal court for malfeasance. This would stop all this illegal activity in its tracks. However, I'm not holding my breath ! This post has been edited by Incandescent: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 - 20:11 |
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Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 07:08
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 19 Jul 2018 Member No.: 98,981 |
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Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 08:06
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Lets see all of all documents +1 The law is quite clear, they have 28 days from receipt of the address of yourself from the hire company to issue a new PCN and cancel the old one. Clearly they have failed in this, and are trying it on. However you must be able to prove that they were provided with your address at the date you mention. The biggest problem in all this decriminalised enforcement is that there are no penalties at all on them for acting unlawfully. It's probably the biggest hole in the whole regime. What is needed is a regulator who can impose swingeing penalties on councils that do this, including taking the decision takers to a criminal court for malfeasance. This would stop all this illegal activity in its tracks. However, I'm not holding my breath ! Its no quite that clear the date is 28 days from date the original PCN is cancelled 10(6)(a) and(b) of the regs. We really need to see your representations. But essentially if what you say about the date in by which the hire co informed the council of your details then they only have the 28 day period to cancel, the 6 month period does not start afresh. The dates will be substantiated by the case history log -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 08:48
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,269 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
Agree with PMB, the six months does not apply in the way you think.
The problem here is that there is no statutory time limit to respond to reps and it's feasible they only dealt with the lease co reps in May. Still within the 6 months btw. You could still use 'unreasonable delay'. You need the date the first PCN was cancelled. -------------------- |
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Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 09:31
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#7
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
OP----in order to pass liability to yourself I presume, (others will correct me if I am wrong), that the lease company under the terms of The Road Traffic (Owner Liability) Regulations 2000 needs a statement of liability signed by the yourself and the inclusion a lot of detail:-
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/2546/schedule/2/made If you can prove from your documents that any of that detail is missing then the transfer of liability is compromised and the subsequent PCN to you will be invalid. After all this time I doubt the Council could pursue the lease company for the penalty if this appeal ground proves effective. If this goes to adjudication I would expect to see, in the Council's evidence pack, that they regard the transfer of liability as a given (they present full documents) not just a statement from the lease company that you were the lessee. Mick |
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Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 16:46
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 19 Jul 2018 Member No.: 98,981 |
Thanks all. I'll go back to the lease company and ask for something in writing regarding when they sent the letter to the council with my details. I'll also contact the council and ask if they could provide me with the date the first PCN was cancelled, I doubt they will but it's worth a try.
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Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 17:45
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Thanks all. I'll go back to the lease company and ask for something in writing regarding when they sent the letter to the council with my details. I'll also contact the council and ask if they could provide me with the date the first PCN was cancelled, I doubt they will but it's worth a try. Just ask for the pcn history log -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 22:26
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Thanks all. I'll go back to the lease company and ask for something in writing regarding when they sent the letter to the council with my details. I'll also contact the council and ask if they could provide me with the date the first PCN was cancelled, I doubt they will but it's worth a try. Just ask for the pcn history log Sorry if this is obvious, but ask the council for the pcn history log. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 10:41
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,065 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
With respect...
You have a NOR, you must deal with it. Register your appeal, grounds ‘penalty exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case’ Skeleton grounds: The date of detection and contravention were ***. The PCN in question was dated ***. Self-evidently this is outside the 28-day period (contrary to the authority’s statement to the effect that they have 6 months) and therefore the PCN is void unless the authority can show that by virtue of an earlier PCN having been cancelled the PCN in question was a valid ‘fresh penalty notice’. I will adduce evidence to the effect that: Either owner liability should not have been transferred by the authority, or That the applicable ‘detection date’ in my case occured more than 28 days before the PCN was served and therefore the PCN is invalid. And then you go chasing whoever for evidence. But remember, it is the authority’s task to show that they issued the PCN in time and given that they think ‘in time’ is 6 months, I wish them luck. And they will get (actually they’d receive it, but whether they’d ‘get’ it?) the above. And they will realise that they have c****d-up and IMO are obliged to review their NOR. And if they were to still believe that ‘a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face would see them through’, then go for costs. This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 10:43 |
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Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 12:44
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
HCA is of course correct. I did not put that to you as the first course of action, because TPT are taking approx. 3 weeks from registering your appeal to requiring submissions (just done one for BiL.
You do not have to register until the 6th of August, so NOT MISSING THAT DATE I would maximise the time to receive evidence . Though the council will have to submit the case history -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 18:49
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20,919 Joined: 22 Apr 2012 Member No.: 54,455 |
I've seen 2nd issue PCNs on here where the date of cancellation of the 1st PCN is stated. Clearly Oldham don't want anybody knowing about their appalling admin ! I think if the OP is prepared to stand his/her ground, then the matter should be taken to adjudication, unless the hire company information is not as expected dates-wise.
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Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 23:34
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
Ask for the PCN history log.
the 6 months is totally wrong as is any reliance upon the date that the lease company sent their challenge. What counts is the date that PCN was cancelled and that date starts a 28 day clock. Lease company should have had a Notice of Acceptance, ask them for the date on it and if possible a copy. |
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Mon, 23 Jul 2018 - 07:37
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 19 Jul 2018 Member No.: 98,981 |
Again thank you so much for the advice. I've already spoke with the sales lady I deal with from the lease, she is going to request for a letter to be sent to me confirming the dates they received and replied to the original PCN (so i have it in writing). As advised, I'm going to register my appeal and then request a PCN log from Oldham council. Hopefully they don't take long to reply but given how long it's taken them to issue the PCN notice to me then I'm not holding my breath.
I'll update once i hear back from them but thanks to everyone on here who's commented. |
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Mon, 30 Jul 2018 - 11:01
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 19 Jul 2018 Member No.: 98,981 |
So after requesting the PCN history log as advised on here, today I received an email from Oldham council stating the charge has been cancelled. Great result and all possible thanks to this place, but I can’t help but feel slightly annoyed. Not only did they incorrectly issue the PCN in the first place but they rejected my first appeal. Why not, after the appeal, hold your hands up and say the ticket is wrong and cancel it. I very nearly paid the PCN after my appeal was rejected and only reason I didn’t was due to being skint and feeling hard done by as the incident was in December and ticket was issued end of May!
Anyway, thank you so much for the help everyone has given. |
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