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Minster Street Reading Bus Lane Again, Help please!!
Peeved1960
post Wed, 8 Jan 2020 - 09:12
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Morning all, sorry to bother you but having seen the posts on this subject I wondered if I could ask for some assistance too please.
I have been sent a PCN for driving in the bus lane in Minster Street, Reading whilst being lost.
I saw a sign for the bus lane, however, I was already in a one way street and therefore unable to turn round.
Does anybody know if Reading Council have changed the signs since the last posting? I would assume not but would appreciate confirmation please.
If not can anyone assist in drafting a suitable representation / appeal please?
Thanks in anticipation.
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post Wed, 8 Jan 2020 - 09:12
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 8 Jan 2020 - 10:23
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Usual rules - post up copies of PCN, council photos and give the latest street view.
The Last time I walked up there there are some reaosnable signs, and the road is NOT one way until after you pass the signs.
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cp8759
post Wed, 8 Jan 2020 - 20:07
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The last tribunal decision we won was Paolo Di Tecco v Reading Borough Council (RG00027-1901, 21 February 2019) http://bit.ly/2SkuoEk, the appeal wording for that case is here http://bit.ly/2SHIZ1C

We had a later case here http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=129337 which I think we could have overturned, but velji never got back to us about a possible review.

I've also since come to realise that the camera used by the council could not possibly comply with the schedule to The Bus Lanes (Approved Devices) (England) Order 2005 here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/2756/schedule/made which includes a requirement that the camera be capable of producing:

(ii) a wider angle image of the carriageway such as will enable information to be provided about any circumstances which may have caused the vehicle to be in the bus lane or the selected area

Post up the PCN and the video for your case, you imgur.com or imgbb.com for images and youtube or vimeo for the video.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 - 20:07


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Peeved1960
post Thu, 9 Jan 2020 - 20:58
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Thanks both for your replies, unfortunately I am having difficulty in working out how to add the photos and video. Any suggestions please?
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cp8759
post Thu, 9 Jan 2020 - 23:07
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Put images on imgur.com or imgbb.com and the video on youtube or vimeo


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Peeved1960
post Fri, 10 Jan 2020 - 18:20
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Please see the images, I will attempt to load the video shortly
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Peeved1960
post Fri, 10 Jan 2020 - 18:56
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And now hopefully the video (if I've done it right)

https://vimeo.com/384059525/settings

Password = Ticket

and finally the PCN as well



Thanks for any help you can give and sorry for the delay in getting these posted.
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BenADI
post Sat, 11 Jan 2020 - 00:15
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Will/May flaw in PCN so there is that as an appeal route
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cp8759
post Sat, 11 Jan 2020 - 17:44
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QUOTE (Peeved1960 @ Fri, 10 Jan 2020 - 18:56) *
And now hopefully the video (if I've done it right)

https://vimeo.com/384059525/settings

Password = Ticket

Not quite, the correct link is https://vimeo.com/384059525

You have an arguable case on the signage, and Reading's PCNs are full of flaws, but some adjudicators won't accept this so there is an element of risk in pursing this. I would fight this but it's your money at risk so it has to be your decision.


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Peeved1960
post Sat, 11 Jan 2020 - 18:14
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Thanks for checking, if I appeal what is the situation with the fines etc? Presumably I forfeit the opportunity to pay the reduced amount, is that right?

I presume you were able to view the clip?

What would be the wording for the representation, is there a draft I could use if I choose to?

Thanks again.
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cp8759
post Sun, 12 Jan 2020 - 16:45
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Normally if you make a representation the council will re-offer the discount to dissuade you from going to the tribunal. However, we can be pretty confident that Reading will reject whatever your submit, so it would be pragmatic to decide now whether you're willing to risk the full penalty amount at the tribunal. If you decide to go ahead, one of us will draft a representation for you. You can't do it yourself as it will be far too technical.


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Peeved1960
post Sun, 12 Jan 2020 - 22:14
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Hi cp8759
Many thanks for your help, I have decided that I will make representation as the council don’t appear to be learning any lessons.
Any assistance you can provide will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks again.
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cp8759
post Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 02:41
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Bump the thread in the morning.


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Peeved1960
post Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 13:11
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Does that mean refresh?? I haven’t received anything yet.
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cp8759
post Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 21:31
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Why don't you try drafting a representation and putting it on here, then we can beef it up for you.


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Peeved1960
post Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 13:49
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Hi CP8759
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Please see the appeal grounds below which (may or may not be familiar)

Appeal Grounds

Being unfamiliar with the Reading road network I took a wrong turn whilst attempting to drop off my daughter & boyfriend to a works dinner. The conditions were dark and drizzly rain making visibility more difficult than normal.

Having entered and driven along Kings Road I entered King Street. This road appeared to be “one way” as there were no lines along the centre of the road (see below)

https://geo0.ggpht.com/cbk?cb_client=maps_s....77379365437673

At the top of this road I came to the Bus Lane signs, however as this appears to be a “one way” road with no alternative exit routes I felt that I had no alternative but to take the bus lane as I could obviously not take any other route. (see below)

https://geo0.ggpht.com/cbk?cb_client=maps_s...7.1837201203385

The amount demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case: ThePCN wrongly asserts that if the penalty is not paid or challenged, the enforcement authority“will” increase the penalty:

The amount demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case:

The authority has not properly considered the representations which have been made:

This post has been edited by Peeved1960: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 13:52
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cp8759
post Fri, 24 Jan 2020 - 21:41
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That's awful, throw it in the bin. I've kept this brief as the council will reject whatever you say, so the only purpose is to raise the relevant points and then pursuing them fully at the tribunal. Also enclose these three decisions with the representation:

Anthony Hall v Kent County Council (with Tunbridge Wells BC) (JU-00042-1810, 07 December 2018): http://bit.ly/2DmNq7N
Ammar Abdul Hadi v Coventry City Council (CV00067-1902, 05 April 2019): http://bit.ly/2UqVTSF
David Chapman v Portsmouth City Council (PO00086-1811, 09 January 2019): http://bit.ly/2OxA9Au

Do not send the links, you'll need to send the actual PDFs.

-------

Dear Reading Borough Council,

Being unfamiliar with the Reading road network I took a wrong turn whilst attempting to drop off my daughter & boyfriend to a works dinner. The conditions were dark and drizzly rain making visibility more difficult than normal.

Having entered and driven along Kings Road I I past the traffic lights with a mandatory left turn arrow, I had no choice but to turn left as failure to do so is a criminal offence punishable with a fine and penalty points. I could not have completed a u-turn in the space available and all other routes were blocked by no entry signs, again contravening such signs would leave me liable to criminal prosecution by the police.

As such there was no viable route available to me that would not risk me penalty points on my licence. I would also highlight that the mandatory bus gate road markings seem to be missing from the road surface.

I also make a collateral challenge against the PCN, on the basis that it does not comply with the requirements of the statutory scheme. The PCN wrongly states that if I do not pay or challenge the penalty, the council will issue a charge certificate. Issuing a charge certificate is a discretionary step, the council cannot know in advance that it will issue a charge certificate and the tribunal has held that the council cannot fetter its discretion in this regard, see for example Anthony Hall v Kent County Council (with Tunbridge Wells BC) (JU-00042-1810, 07 December 2018), Ammar Abdul Hadi v Coventry City Council (CV00067-1902, 05 April 2019) and David Chapman v Portsmouth City Council (PO00086-1811, 09 January 2019). As a result, the only penalty that may be demanded is nil.


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Peeved1960
post Sat, 25 Jan 2020 - 16:37
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Many thanks for your reply and assistance. I will send the representation and let you know the outcome in due course.
Thanks again & regards
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cp8759
post Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 19:54
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We already know the outcome, Reading will reject. Just post up the rejection letter and I'll re-giggle one of my previous Minster Street appeals to fit your case.


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Peeved1960
post Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 19:58
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Will do, thanks again for all your help.
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