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PCN - Council CP, No charges for parking, ticket for being over two spaces, No P&D on weekends, no parking for long vehicles, no restrictions.
PCNPK
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 11:04
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Hi all,

I am hoping someone will be able to advise on the current situation I have.


Last weekend I took our sports team in a mini bus to a sports centre, used their car park which is owned by the council. There are no parking charges at the weekend however they had a warden on that Sunday it seems!

Upon entering the car park we of course looked for coach/mini bus parking but there was nothing provided for such vehicles - only standard spaces. Instead of parking in a standard space and sticking out (the van is 7m) or blocking any access points/pathways, we parked in spaces parallel to the kerb and not reverse/drive in style spaces (if that makes sense). We parked in front of another mini bus too.

When returning to the van there was a parking ticket stating we had been fined for parking over two bays.
There was also a ticket on the other mini bus which I presume was for the same thing as it was parked in the same manner.

I appealed this stating that the vehicle was well parked, in a space that was not obstructing any other vehicles or access points. The car park wasn't full and therefore it wasn't an issue for space availability. There were no charges on a weekend and if there had have been charges we'd have paid for two spaces as we were aware it was over two bays. Also that I had no alternative as there were no designated spaces for longer vehicles which I found strange as teams must travel frequently to the venue...

The response I've had in short is as follows:
You were given a Penalty Charge Notice because part of your vehicle was outside the white lines of the parking bay. You are not allowed to park like this even if you have paid to park, are displaying an item correctly (for example a permit, Pay & Display ticket or disabled badge) or other cars have not left you enough room. Although one incorrectly parked car can make the next space too small for anyone else to use, we enforce the rule across both spaces. We do this to stop a knock-on effect of further cars parking incorrectly, reducing the available parking space even more.

Although there are no Pay & Display charges on a Sunday, all other parking restrictions within the car park still remain enforceable.

The fact that other cars may not have been given Penalty Charge Notices does not affect your Penalty Charge Notice, which was given correctly.


I think it goes without saying that I'm not willing to pay this fine but would like some help as to what to do next. I have photographic evidence, pretty much exactly the same as the council put in the online portal, but I will refrain from posting for now as I'm not sure what benefit it will bring to this post yet.

Any help much appreciated,

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post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 11:04
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stamfordman
post Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 21:07
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QUOTE (PCNPK @ Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 20:58) *
Yes I called them to ask about minibus/longer vehicle parking and although they said there is no specific parking - they told me to come down into car park and park EXACTLY where I parked...

Should I be emailing them to see if I can get something in writing?



Sorry not read back through thread but has this been discussed before? As a council facility I would have thought that they should argue with each other but not with you.

Anyway, now you need to register the appeal to the adjudicator. Indeed i would email the centre innocently and see if you can something back you can use in the appeal.

Say you are intending to bring a party to the centre in a large minibus (or whatever it is) and please would they advise on parking.
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PCNPK
post Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 21:12
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It has been touched upon before (I think you were involved in the early stages of this thread) that they should have provision for minibus parking and that they should accept that their facilities are lacking. However, it wasn't discussed in much depth other than what's stated in the appeal letter about the Traffic Order.

That's the story I used when I called, so I'll pop an email to them and see what they said.

Might also follow up with the other team who was also being penalised for parking the exact same way.
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cp8759
post Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 00:57
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QUOTE (PCNPK @ Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 20:58) *
Yes I called them to ask about minibus/longer vehicle parking and although they said there is no specific parking - they told me to come down into car park and park EXACTLY where I parked...

Should I be emailing them to see if I can get something in writing?

It would be a big bonus if you could get that in writing. I will draft a tribunal appeal for you when I get a spare minute, but I will wait to hear if you can get something in writing about minibus parking first.


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hcandersen
post Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 11:15
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Stick to procedure and register your appeal.

IMO all these peripheral issues do not amont to much, in particular there is no grounds of appeal for procedural impropriety, so you need to be clear about exactly which grounds apply in any appeal.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1991/4...edule/6/enacted

You parked across 2 bays.
Your defence is that this is not stated in the Ts and Cs displayed in the car park, therefore a penalty on these grounds cannot be sustained: the driver must know BEFORE THEY LEAVE THEIR VEHICLE exactly what rules apply AND the potential ramifications for non-compliance.

IMO you do not start your appeal with disputes about wording in subsequent documents because from the perspectives of chronology and materiality they're second-order issues.

Penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case. (The council didn't get this wording correct either!)

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 11:16
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cp8759
post Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 11:23
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 11:15) *
Stick to procedure and register your appeal.

No, don't. You have until 13 March to register your appeal, no need to rush. Let's get all the facts straight and put together a knock-out appeal, rather than rushing into things.


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hcandersen
post Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 11:56
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They're not submitting a full appeal, just registering.

And the sooner they do, the sooner the authority know the substantive grounds and realise that their bluff has been called.

There is no such grounds that the council should make provision for this type of vehicle. (In fact the order does to a degree, but as a motorist doesn't know what's in the order when they park, it's no help)

And don't pad out an appeal, potentially diminishing strong arguments, with peripheral matters which the adj may not take into account.

Edit
If they want to refer to spaces then ...
As there we no parking charges for parking in any space, then clearly no charge was recoverable for parking in two which, with a vehicle of my dimensions for which no other specific provision is made, I reasoned would, in the absence of any instructions to the contrary displayed at the site, be OK.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 12:27
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PCNPK
post Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 00:33
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I just got this response from the other team who had their mini bus ticketed.

https://ibb.co/gtqSgDx

I have yet to send an email to the centre but will tomorrow.
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cp8759
post Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 01:41
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You may want to, in parallel, see if you can speak to the senior parking attendant they spoke to.


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hcandersen
post Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 08:56
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Which is why I suggest you should register your appeal which would then be copied to the authority because in this way they would be made aware formally.(everything you send to the adjudicator by way of your appeal is copied to the authority and vice versa).

I am not for all this extra-procedural activity unless it is in addition to registering an appeal, not instead of(at this stage).
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cp8759
post Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 23:44
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With the deadline several weeks away, I see no urgency in registering an appeal now. We could wait till March 10th, and then register a "detailed grounds to follow" appeal if need be. Or if we've got everything we want by then, we can go in all guns blazing. Registering an appeal now just means bringing the actual deadline for submissions forwards.

Or is there some other reason why you think PCNPK shouldn't use the 28 day appeal period in this way?


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cp8759
post Mon, 11 Mar 2019 - 17:40
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If you haven't done so already, register your appeal now and write "detailed grounds to follow" in the reasons box. If you miss the deadline, it's game over.


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PCNPK
post Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 22:48
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Hi everyone

Sorry for my absence, I wanted to pop by and let you know the latest.

In true old fashioned form, I picked up the phone and had a conversation with a human! I spoke with the senior parking attendant who was familiar with the appeal and explained the situation to him. He was a genuinely decent chap. They had been having problems with workies parking their vans in the car park and then appealing their fines. They had thought (even though I had written in the first appeal about being a team in the sports centre) that our van was a work van and was not a passenger vehicle. I explained to him I could send him photos and have written statements from the team who travelled in the van to the sports centre that day but he just laughed it off and said it would not be necessary. He said that he was satisfied with my explanation and advised next time to call ahead and they will place out cones for an additional bay for longer vehicles.

I really appreciate everyone's input in this thread and hope that the responses, and the outcome, help others with their appeals in the future.

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cp8759
post Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 09:47
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Well done, I'm glad it worked out in the end.


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John U.K.
post Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 10:17
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Well done smile.gif

You have confirmation in writing of the cancellation?
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stamfordman
post Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 10:23
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Well done but what a time waster by the council. This kind of case is really irritating.
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PCNPK
post Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 17:41
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Thanks folks. Yes had written confirmation of cancellation within 5 mins off being off the phone. Very frustrating to have taken this long, I agree. But it’s done now, thankfully.
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