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31J - Newham - Barking Road, Review letter
kingpin99
post Mon, 13 Mar 2017 - 22:48
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Hi,

i received a PCN for a 31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction.
i have researched and constructed the following letter:


I wish to appeal against this Penalty Charge Notice.
The alleged Contravention did not occur for the following reasons:

1. I believe the alleged contravention did not occur.
2. I did not cause an obstruction.
3. The Yellow Box junction where the alleged contravention took place does not conform to the standards.


1. The contravention did not occur.

Contravention 31J is “entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited”. Therefore, to be in prohibition of Contravention 31J one must have both:

i) Entered the box junction when prohibited, and
ii) Stopped in a box junction when prohibited

When entering the box junction my exit was free from stationary traffic. Only after entering the box junction did my exit become impeded by stationary traffic, you can see from the pictures.

Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 5 (TSM5), Section 12.2 clearly states that a prohibition on entering a box junction only occurs when “drivers entering the box when their exit is obstructed by stationary vehicles”. This means if entering when not prohibited (i.e. when stationary vehicles are ABSENT), and then stopping afterwards, is NOT an infringement of Contravention 31J.

There is no evidence that has been made available that supports the presence of stationary vehicles impeding or obstructing my exit when entering the box junction. I therefore require the full video evidence to show that I entered the yellow box junction when the vehicle in front of me was stationary.

2. No Obstruction Caused
It can be seen from the pictures that I am not causing an obstruction to any vehicle entering or exiting from Barking road onto Bartholomew Rd.


3. Yellow Box ending well short of the kerb

The Yellow Box junction shown in the photograph is not valid because the yellow box does not go right up to the kerb as is required by law.
The photograph provided clearly shows the Yellow Box ending well short of the kerb.
Such a Yellow box which deviates from the standards requires approval from the Department for Transport (DFT). As such I request proof of this approval by the Department for Transport.
I also included the diagram below, which shows in detail how a Yellow Box Junction must be laid out.




They haven't sent or upload any video footage of the car, so if the they reject the appeal and don't send me the video footage, i can use the following case:

Case Details
Case reference 2130360654
Appellant Jay Kothari
Authority London Borough of Barking and Dagenham
VRM GN51VWU
PCN Details
PCN BZ94164459
Contravention date 19 May 2013
Contravention time 13:47:00
Contravention location High Road Chadwell Heath
Penalty amount GBP 110.00
Contravention Parked in a loading place without loading
Decision date 03 Sep 2013
Adjudicator Anthony Chan
Appeal decision PCN appeal allowed
Direction cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and the Notice to Owner.
Reasons The Appellant attended in person. The Authority did not attend and it was not represented. The Appellant had made a written request to see the CCTV recording. He said that he did not receive a response and the Authority did not challenge that. The failure to allow the Appellant to see the CCTV recording is a procedural impropriety. I am allowing the appeal.

any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks


Here are some pictures:








This post has been edited by kingpin99: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 10:18
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post Mon, 13 Mar 2017 - 22:48
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 13 Mar 2017 - 22:52
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For best advice post all of the PCN redact only personal details, get the video either go online (check the PCN for this) or phone and ask if possible post it here


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Neil B
post Mon, 13 Mar 2017 - 23:24
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Sorry to pee on your bonfire but, your points -

1. Is just plain wrong.

2. Is irrelevant.

3. The box appears substantially compliant (re current law)

and the case cited is parking: Different legislation and, on your particular point, irrelevant.

Best start with telling us what happened - and the PCN as requested.


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Neil is good at working backwards.

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Incandescent
post Mon, 13 Mar 2017 - 23:27
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+1

You're wrong on point 1, and if you rely on it you'll lose. You must not enter the box and then have to stop due to the presence of stationary vehicles. So closely following vehicles into a box is foolish because they may stop leaving you in the box. The only safe way is to only enter the box when you have a clear exit. Of course in London this is very difficult as several adjudicators have commented in the past, but still refused the appeals.

Forget the point about obstruction, it is totally irrelevant. The contravention does not rely on an obstruction being caused. Would that it did, as London councils wouldn't be making shed loads of money out of YBJs ! Only getout as far as I can see is time stopped. You need to view the video to find this out. 5 seconds or less can be argued as de minimis and has won appeals in the past.

Point about the YBJ being non-compliant is also likely not to be considered significant on the "substantial compliance" rule.

Main thing if you want to fight this, and it will be for the £130 not the discount, is to view the video.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 - 23:28
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kingpin99
post Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 08:05
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I have add the PCN scan.

there isn't a video uploaded by the council. Only pictures.

how do i go about with charge?

Thanks

This post has been edited by kingpin99: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 08:07
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Incandescent
post Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 09:16
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Video is only legally mandated as to be viewed at their premises. The PCN should tell you how to view it. It is deliberately made difficult, after, all what do you do if you live 200 miles away !
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Neil B
post Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 09:42
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 09:16) *
Video is only legally mandated as to be viewed at their premises. The PCN should tell you how to view it. It is deliberately made difficult, after, all what do you do if you live 200 miles away !

There is no requirement to allow viewing or provide a video re moving traffic PCNs

Ask and see what you get.

Do note, however, that Newham emphatically state they will not 'hold' the discount
period while you view.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 09:43


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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astralite
post Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 09:54
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 09:42) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 09:16) *
Video is only legally mandated as to be viewed at their premises. The PCN should tell you how to view it. It is deliberately made difficult, after, all what do you do if you live 200 miles away !

There is no requirement to allow viewing or provide a video re moving traffic PCNs

Ask and see what you get.

Do note, however, that Newham emphatically state they will not 'hold' the discount
period while you view.


On the back of the PCN it says you can view the video on line. You can see from the pics that there must be a video. Check again very carefully. They usually show the pics first. Look – is there also a small tab to click which will produce the video?
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kingpin99
post Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 10:21
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QUOTE (astralite @ Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 09:54) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 09:42) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 09:16) *
Video is only legally mandated as to be viewed at their premises. The PCN should tell you how to view it. It is deliberately made difficult, after, all what do you do if you live 200 miles away !

There is no requirement to allow viewing or provide a video re moving traffic PCNs

Ask and see what you get.

Do note, however, that Newham emphatically state they will not 'hold' the discount
period while you view.


On the back of the PCN it says you can view the video on line. You can see from the pics that there must be a video. Check again very carefully. They usually show the pics first. Look – is there also a small tab to click which will produce the video?


I have looked on the website. where the video should be its been grayed out, i can't press play.
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stamfordman
post Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 10:34
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If you PM me the car VRM and PCN number I'll check in other browsers to see if the video is there.

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astralite
post Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 10:55
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 10:34) *
If you PM me the car VRM and PCN number I'll check in other browsers to see if the video is there.


I'd take up this offer! I'd also tell Newham that the video is not on line and ask them where it is. Keep a record of doing that. Come back asap and tell us what they say so we can consider what might be the best approach keeping in mind the deadline for your representations.

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kingpin99
post Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 11:08
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QUOTE (astralite @ Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 10:55) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 10:34) *
If you PM me the car VRM and PCN number I'll check in other browsers to see if the video is there.


I'd take up this offer! I'd also tell Newham that the video is not on line and ask them where it is. Keep a record of doing that. Come back asap and tell us what they say so we can consider what might be the best approach keeping in mind the deadline for your representations.


I have him PM'ed stamfordman.
i will give them a call and see whats going on today.

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Neil B
post Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 11:11
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QUOTE (kingpin99 @ Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 11:08) *
i will give them a call

laugh.gif That'll be an experience.
Let us know if you get stuck.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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stamfordman
post Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 11:19
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So far no luck - there's seems to be something there but I can't play it. I'll try another thing but do call and ask if it's actually there and if so what the system requirements are.
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kingpin99
post Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 11:29
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 11:11) *
QUOTE (kingpin99 @ Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 11:08) *
i will give them a call

laugh.gif That'll be an experience.
Let us know if you get stuck.


Ok so gave them a call at 11:12am Spoke to Elaine.

Me: Hi, i am trying to view a video on my pcn i received PCN....
Me: The video is not working or its not there. I can see the pictures though
Put on hold
Elaine: i can see the picture too. there is no video. there isn't a video recording.
Elaine: The pictures are self-explanatory

i wish i could have recorded the conversation.

So i could appeal on the basis that there isn't video evidence.

This post has been edited by kingpin99: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 11:30
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stamfordman
post Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 11:44
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I believe that with no video there can be no proof of a moving traffic contravention. Others will confirm. They may reject your challenge but are likely to withdraw the case if it goes to the adjudicator.
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kingpin99
post Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 12:15
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Is this letter ok?

I wish to appeal against this Penalty Charge Notice.

The alleged Contravention did not occur. The PCN PN******** alleges that the vehicle was in contravention of a parking contravention. When I entered the Yellow Box junction, the vehicle in front of me was moving. That vehicle then stopped after I had entered the junction forcing me to stop within the yellow box junction.

The offence is committed when one enters the box. I therefore require the full video evidence to show that I entered the yellow box junction when the vehicle in front of me was stationary.
I did contact the Newham council on the 14/03/2017 @ 11.12am regarding viewing video evidence, but the telephone operator told me that only the pictures were available and not the video.

For this reason, I look forward to receiving notification that the Penalty Charge Notice has been cancelled.


Should i add the print screen showing that the video isn't viewable.

Thanks

This post has been edited by kingpin99: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 12:17
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Neil B
post Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 12:19
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 11:44) *
I believe that with no video there can be no proof of a moving traffic contravention. Others will confirm. They may reject your challenge but are likely to withdraw the case if it goes to the adjudicator.

The fact it's not available doesn't mean they don't have it.
They're showing stills from it.

QUOTE (kingpin99 @ Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 12:15) *
Is this letter ok?

[i]I wish to appeal against this Penalty Charge Notice.

The alleged Contravention did not occur. The PCN PN******** alleges that the vehicle was in contravention of a parking contravention. When I entered the Yellow Box junction, the vehicle in front of me was moving. That vehicle then stopped after I had entered the junction forcing me to stop within the yellow box junction.

The offence is committed when one enters the box. I therefore require the full video evidence to show that I entered the yellow box junction when the vehicle in front of me was stationary.

It's nonsense.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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astralite
post Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 12:30
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Still photos don’t prove a moving traffic contravention. They must produce a video. Let’s try to pin it down now before helping with the draft representations.

I suggest (although it’s a bit belt and braces) phone them again now and ask Elaine to send you an email confirming that there is no video recording, or if there is one it’s not currently available because….
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Neil B
post Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 12:33
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QUOTE (astralite @ Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 12:30) *
Still photos don’t prove a moving traffic contravention.

I haven't suggested they do.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 - 12:34


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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