PCN due to pavement parking on road closure day, Parked on raised pavement, double yellow Options

[Nowhere Gal 2]

Hi all,

You have been superb in the past, so requesting help again please.

On the day of the last London Prudential Ride (Sunday 4th Aug 2019), roads around us are closed and as we are on the main road, we have to pull our cars out to park. With aged parent and child with some physical demands, this is a real job as means planning ahead and then walking out/ wheelchair etc to go to †he car.

This year our usual spots were booked up so my husband and I parked along with other cars on the raised kerb but didn't realise there was a DYL as other cars were parked along.


This was on 4th August, and the Council has just this past week rejected the appeal. Given the huge inconvenience to residents in the area, the parking on the pavement is a trivial matter if you are not blocking any gates or roads for emergency services.

We are very tired trying to explain this to what we now see as a money extraction process given traffic wardens were roaming the streets on Sunday. I recieved two tickets, and have recieved a rejection to the appeal to just one (waiting to Council response on the second one), so I would like to appeal further.

Should I ask for a freedom of information request to how many cars received a PCN on that street on the day in question?

Please see below some of the wording in the challenge to the original PCN and Council reply at the Google Drive link.

Should I respond to this before i receive the Notice to Owner (NTO)?

Also, does the full PENALTY CHARGE APPLY if I challenge this PCN? I thought that the 50% discount applies throughout the process.

FYI - i called to enquire on the status of the PCN in November, hence they have responded. I still haven't heard on the other PCN challenge on my other car. It seems a bit of a personal attack based on the tone of the person who took my call...

My letter (part of it):................
However, the appeal is on the following basis:

1. The incursion was trivial
2. Photographic evidence (attached) on the same day and Google Map street view show cars parked on the pavement on the same and opposite of the road where issued. https://www.instantstreetview.com/@51.44518...0.64p,0.11zmust
3. There was no blockage to the gates / entrances on inner park road.

Given the poor signposting regarding parking for the event, except ‘Road closed’ signs around the street, the Council must provide reasons why residents are not allowed to park if they are inconvenienced so greatly by this event.

Thanking you in advance.

REPLY FROM WANDSWORTH COUNCIL at the link: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1uk0PhT4vo...Jvcc-ubR27I0m5P
-----

All help much appreciated. Tired of working hard to pay these crazy fines....

Regards,
NG2

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[stamfordman]

I think this one is going to time out as contravention is 4 August. They must serve a notice to owner within 6 months and date of rejection is dated 14 January so they now have until early Feb to serve the NTO.

They must wait 14 days for you to pay discount but then I'm not sure if they can send a sneaky NTO to beat the deadline.

Others will chip in.

EDIT - I see you did chase it up.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 - 23:39

[Incandescent]

The discount only applies if representations are received by them within the 14 day discount period. At the Notice to Owner stage, the discount option is lost, but many councils re-offer it when rejecting formal reps to an NtO as it reduces their workload when people take the matter to adjudication as the penalty does not increase if they do so. The discount option is not available if the matter is taken to adjudication, (London Tribunals). There is no additional charge, however, just the PCN penalty.

The only thing worrying me is, as you say you have not received the Notice to Owner is - is your V5 for the vehicle up-to-date. COuncils are obliged to send the NtO to the name and address on the V5. So if your V5 is not your current address, it could have gone astray. Council administration can be so cock-eyed that NtOs can be issued even though no response has been sent to your original informal reps.

The other thing to do is to get hold of your local councillor and complain about these totally unjustified PCNs and the total lack of forebearance shown to your reps. The cycling event would almost seem to be held just to get PCN penalty income !!

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 - 23:46

[stamfordman]

I'm reading this as the challenge rejection has only just been sent so no NTO yet and we're near the end of 6 months.

[Mad Mick V]

As to the contravention, DYL parking is usually absolute with little chance of appeal.

However the circumstances of this case are unusual given the event and the way residents have parked on the footway. If therefore in previous years such parking has occurred and been allowed that would give rise to a legitimate expectation.

If however the Council has always issued PCNs for DYL parking on event days that ground is not sustainable. Only the OP knows!

Mick

[hcandersen]

Stamfordman has the issue set out: the authority have a 5-day window in which to issue a NTO, and 2 of these are weekend days.

OP, you have 2 choices: to pay the discount or gamble that they would miss the window.

As regards the contravention:
roads around us are closed and as we are on the main road, we have to pull our cars out to park - no idea what this means.

I parked along with other cars on the raised kerb but didn't realise there was a DYL as other cars were parked along. There is a raised kerb on one side of the road but not the other, this is simply a recessed part of the carriageway.

And we haven't seen the PCN,
And we haven't seen photos,
And there's no DYL in streetview!

Can we pl just go back to square 1, forget FOIs and legitimate expectation and just get back to basics.

PCN; their photos; confirmation that you are the registered keeper with up-to-date DVLA details!

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 - 16:56

[Nowhere Gal 2]

Thanks all - your feedback and advice greatly appreciated!

Trying to respond to the questions below.

1. The registered address with DVLA is correct, its the same address for the car since it was bought.
2. PCN is gone amiss sadly - i challenged it via the online process on Wandsworth's website. Is it likely they send the NTO by email? Or does it have to come by post to the Owner?
3. Council photos: Image of my car parked and other cars in a similar way: https://drive.google.com/open?id=17jGxRrdpz...vE02uR7YLoaDwp9
4. As our building is on the main road which is part of the Prudential bike route, on the day of the race we have to park our cars on the side streets at around 6am before all the road closures come into force. We can't bring our cars back into the driveway until about 8pm at night.


I'll look for the PCN and post here!

Thank you again.

Best
NG 2

[hcandersen]

You are bang-to-rights for two contraventions: parking on the footway and parking in a restricted street(the effect of DYL is to the centre of the carriageway in one direction and the back of the footway in the opposite).

They chose to cite the DYL.

You have no defence just because you were displaced from wherever you normally park.

But don't worry, I don't think a NTO will appear (this may be sent by post only) and even if it does then you still have strong grounds for reps. Just because a NTO may be issued within 6 months does not mean that as a matter of regular practice it may: the authority are required to show why there has been such a delay and if they cannot persuade an adj on this point then an appeal would be allowed.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 09:01

[stamfordman]

And if they do get their act together and send an NTO within deadline, they are likely to reoffer the discount if they reject formal reps, given the history of this one.

So our advice is just do nothing for now and report back if an NTO does come.

[Nowhere Gal 2]

Thank you all. I am going to take your advice and wait it out. Fingers crossed!

[Nowhere Gal 2]

Dear all,

1) The Council has been super speedy and send through the NTO the very day after the discount period ended. Almost feels like this is planned.

They want to charge the full penalty fee £110. (I have until approx 25 Feb to pay)

Link to NTO received and previous documents here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1lek...Eax?usp=sharing


2) The question here is now, that our other car also received a PCN on the day, same representation was made however have not had an email response or NTO. Although if I login to the website it shows that now £110 is due here as well.

Shall I email the Council about the second PCN? Or ignore until I hear from them? This is likely to keep racking up £££. Unlike the 1st PCN there has been no response from the Council - either by email or post, and no NTO received. The address on file is correct / V5 is correct, we have been in the same property for the period of both cars.

The big question is if I pay PCN 1 now I almost admit I owe PCN2 as well.

Your advice and experience is very welcome!

Best regards
NG

[spaceman]

The cycling event would almost seem to be held just to get PCN penalty income !!

Now THAT is paranoia!

[hcandersen]

The big question is if I pay PCN 1 now I almost admit I owe PCN2 as well.

No it isn't, it's why you would want to pay either!

Authorities regularly re-offer the discount after unsuccessful reps in any event.

PCN 1
Make reps on the grounds of procedural impropriety.

I refer to the above PCN served on 4 August 2019 and the NTO served on 31 Jan, a period of 6 months less 4 days.

You acknowledge the contravention, however, this is not the issue.

Subject to limited exceptions, none of which applies here, the authority are obliged to serve a NTO no later than the end of the period of 6 months beginning on the date of the contravention. This does not provide an authority with carte blanche to serve NTOs whenever they choose, but rather they must serve a NTO in a timely manner and should this be after any extended period then they must have genuine reasons for so doing. For your information, I have set out below the relevant provision within the statutory guidance:

The Notice to Owner may be issued 28 days after serving the penalty charge, and we expect authorities to send them within 56 days. The ultimate time limit, in exceptional circumstances, is six months from the “relevant date”. There should be a very good reason for waiting that long to serve a Notice to Owner.

As the authority know, the guidance overarches the General and Appeals Regulations and is something to which they must have regard. Therefore, the PCN must be cancelled under the grounds of procedural impropriety and/or penalty exceeded ...in the circumstances of the case unless the authority can successfully argue their entitlement to rely on the 'exceptional circumstances' exception.

And as for PCN 2, they are timed out and you owe them nothing.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sat, 8 Feb 2020 - 11:15

[Nowhere Gal 2]

Thanks hcanderson!

The Council responded with the rejection to my initial appeal (made on 4 Aug 2019) on 14 Jan 2020, giving me 14 days to take the discount - and approx 20 days before the 6 month period was up.

Would the Council argue that they offered this extended period hence NTO could only be sent post that date etc... so are within their '6 month' period....

[stamfordman]

HCA has given you the reps, which you must do (or pay).


You can also include your initial challenge grounds to keep that in the loop too on its way to the adjudicator should they reject again.

[hcandersen]

Would the Council argue that they offered this extended period hence NTO could only be sent post that date etc... so are within their '6 month' period..

The 6-month period is specified in legislation and is not subject to any authority's re-definition based upon their administrative processes.

[Nowhere Gal 2]

Dear all,

Hope you are all well and safe in these unprecedented times!

Dealing with PCNs seems so trivial and unimportant at times like this. However the good people at the councils don't seem to think so and I have had a flurry of messages.


On the SECOND PCN which was mainly ignored, I have recently received an email to my earlier challenge suggesting I can pay this now with the earlier discount applied... If I don;t respond they will send an NTO. Given this is much longer than 6 months since 4 August when the PCN as issued - I am inclined to ignore their email.


On the PCN where I have responded to the NTO, I have now received a Notice of Rejection. I will scan and upload this shortly and am more resolved to fight this.


Will be back here shortly!
Best wishes, and stay safe!

NG

[PASTMYBEST]

Where are the document

post PCN 1 then your challenge then the rejection to that then the NTO then the rejection to that. Also get and post the council photos I would suggest you create onedrive or google folders for each and post links here

Then do the same for PCN two do not think to ignore the NTO that way leads to a bigger penalty that you cannot appeal

[cp8759]

Where are the document

post PCN 1 then your challenge then the rejection to that then the NTO then the rejection to that. Also get and post the council photos I would suggest you create onedrive or google folders for each and post links here

Then do the same for PCN two do not think to ignore the NTO that way leads to a bigger penalty that you cannot appeal

+1 we need to see the paperwork in order to give effective advice.

[Nowhere Gal 2]

Apologies!

The PCN - with details, NTO, NTR etc are at the following links:

PCN1:https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lekqzexyty_betC3Go4BzQTbOkC-eEax
PCN2:sub folder in the above link

Thanking you in advance!

Stay safe!

NG