PCN flaws database |
PCN flaws database |
Fri, 18 Jan 2019 - 18:07
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Link: http://bit.ly/2ALghSS
So this has expanded quite a bit and I'd like to get a feel for how useful people think it is. It now has a whopping 8 tabs, summaried as follows: PCN flaws: List of every council we have encountered since I first started putting this file together with the following data fields: Council policies: Mostly blank, because I don't want to issue the FOIs yet as I don't want them being grouped together with the FOIs for the Templated wording column (as that might cause the request to exceeds the cost limit), but once populated this will list all known council policies Templated wording: Links to known templated wording obtained via FOI. The obvious advantage of having this is that while we know councils blurt out a lot of templated nonsense, it would have far more impact to be able to say "this is a templated rejection, here's the original template they used", if the adjudicator can see they just populated a few data fields it's more likely they will find there's been a failure to consider. 0845/0844/087 & service charge: Any known premum rate number and associated service charge Known flaw 1, Known flaw 2 etc: A list of known defects in PCNs, NtO, NoRs and the like, with (where I didn't forget to do so) a link to the relevant thread where the issue was first spotted adjudications: List of key cases, with a somewhat incomplete attempt to ground relevant cases together. It's just so much easier than searching the 15 pages of the sticky thread. adjudications full text: Full text of London Tribunals cases listed on the previous tabs. Again this is just quicker / more convenient that looking them up on the tribunal site. Legislation / TROs / contravention codesDoes what it says on the tin. I've tried to make as comprehensive a list as I could while keeping it reasonably self-explanatory. Also has links to the contravention code sites and a few TRO pages. It also links to separate tables for removal powers and Scottish parking legislation, as it couldn't fit comfortable on one tab. High Court / Court of Appeal cases: Again this does what it says on the tin, this list is obviously very important as these cases are binding on the tribunals. If anyone knows of a case that I've missed out, please let me know. Also if anyone thinks the "gist" column that describes the cases in column A is wrong or incomplete, please shout out. Templated wording: Where a council as a whole bunch of templated rejections, column C of the PCN flaws tab links to here. It also lists known flaws I have spotted. This could be useful in some scenarios, for example we now know that regardless of the merits, Medway council bus lane NoRs will (unless they update the template) include a fatal will/may flaw. Removal powers: This is the result of me being frustrated at people being told there are no removal powers under whatever scheme a car has been towed under (be it TMA 2004 or RTA 1991). If nothing else I think those sorts of arguments give OPs false hope on what is, effectively, a doomed ground of appeal. So having a quick reference guide is handy. Parking legislation Scotland: This is a quick reference guide so that on the off occasion that we get a Scottish case, we can reference the correct legislation. We seldom get technical appeals in Scotland, but when it does happen, having to search the legislation from scratch is not ideal (and there's no way this would fit on the main legislation table). I would welcome any feedback. At the same time, I'm going to go out and suggest that before any OP is advised that their case is hopeless and they should pay up, it's worth checking if a known flaw is on the list, this is especially true where they only post part of the paperwork. I think there's been two cases so far this week (Elmbridge Borough Council and Ipswich Borough Council) where people have been advised that they should pay up, without anyone mentioning that there may be scope for an appeal on a procedural impropriety (even though most of us would say that both reg 3(2)(b)(ii) and will/may are worth taking forwards). -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 18 Jan 2019 - 18:07
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Sun, 3 May 2020 - 15:30
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Member No.: 14,115 |
This is incredibly useful. I will send you a win I had on behalf of a motorist on the "will/may" issue. It was Cheshire West and Cheshire Council AW00056-1811 on 15 November 2018. I need to redact it first.
Regards |
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Sun, 3 May 2020 - 15:46
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
I use it a fair bit mainly adjudications and high court cases Adjudications could be a bit easier if a column was added that gives a reason for the decision
PI, no contravention, inadequate signage YBJ no turn or something along those lines so a search can be refined -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Sun, 3 May 2020 - 16:30
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Member No.: 14,115 |
On my copy I have added a clickable index page and can send it to you if that would help .I was also thinking of adding a column for the key element/decision in a High Court case. Eg,Moses - v- Barnet i.e. London Borough of Barnet Council, R (on the application of) v The Parking Adjudicator [2006] EWHC 2357 (Admin)
41. Mr Lewis submits that even if there was non -compliance in this respect, nevertheless no prejudice was caused. PCNs should not be regarded as invalid. I do not accept this submission. Prejudice is irrelevant and does not need to be established. The 1991 Act creates a scheme for the civil enforcement of parking control. Under this scheme, motorists become liable to pay financial penalties when certain specified statutory conditions are met. If the statutory conditions are not met, then the financial liability does not arise. |
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Sun, 3 May 2020 - 17:04
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
On my copy I have added a clickable index page and can send it to you if that would help .I was also thinking of adding a column for the key element/decision in a High Court case. Eg,Moses - v- Barnet i.e. London Borough of Barnet Council, R (on the application of) v The Parking Adjudicator [2006] EWHC 2357 (Admin) 41. Mr Lewis submits that even if there was non -compliance in this respect, nevertheless no prejudice was caused. PCNs should not be regarded as invalid. I do not accept this submission. Prejudice is irrelevant and does not need to be established. The 1991 Act creates a scheme for the civil enforcement of parking control. Under this scheme, motorists become liable to pay financial penalties when certain specified statutory conditions are met. If the statutory conditions are not met, then the financial liability does not arise. Sounds like a plan, why not put on the board so a few of us frequent posters can give our thoughts -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Wed, 6 May 2020 - 20:15
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I've been wondering whether I should make an index for some time, but by all means if you've made one please send it to me and I'll add it.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 8 May 2020 - 23:19
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
OK I've made an index, let me know what you think. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pVr...#gid=2120495952
This post has been edited by cp8759: Fri, 8 May 2020 - 23:20 -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 9 May 2020 - 20:37
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
What I would like to see is a column that outlines sets out the reason for the decision that is sortable.
Resident/permit bay yellow lines suspended bay Box junction prohibited turn etc This could then be sorted so it makes it easier to find a case relevant to the case in hand -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Sat, 9 May 2020 - 20:56
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
Well it's now much bigger than a PCN flaws (and council policy) database if tribunal decisions are in it. A lot of work.
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Sun, 10 May 2020 - 17:51
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
What I would like to see is a column that outlines sets out the reason for the decision that is sortable. Resident/permit bay yellow lines suspended bay Box junction prohibited turn etc This could then be sorted so it makes it easier to find a case relevant to the case in hand If you're able to classify the cases along those lines I can add a column for tha. Well it's now much bigger than a PCN flaws (and council policy) database if tribunal decisions are in it. A lot of work. I know, it's grown arms and legs... -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 10 May 2020 - 17:57
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
What I would like to see is a column that outlines sets out the reason for the decision that is sortable. Resident/permit bay yellow lines suspended bay Box junction prohibited turn etc This could then be sorted so it makes it easier to find a case relevant to the case in hand If you're able to classify the cases along those lines I can add a column for tha. Well it's now much bigger than a PCN flaws (and council policy) database if tribunal decisions are in it. A lot of work. I know, it's grown arms and legs... They do mine now a list of 650 cases + I copied yours a while ago but never got would to combining both. I will soon and add a reason to each -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Sun, 10 May 2020 - 18:03
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
They do mine now a list of 650 cases + I copied yours a while ago but never got would to combining both. I will soon and add a reason to each How long is a while? I've been adding cases whenever a new general point has come up. I also think we need to do our best to combine TPT decisions, as there's no official online database we're just going to have to maintain our own. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 10 May 2020 - 19:14
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
They do mine now a list of 650 cases + I copied yours a while ago but never got would to combining both. I will soon and add a reason to each How long is a while? I've been adding cases whenever a new general point has come up. I also think we need to do our best to combine TPT decisions, as there's no official online database we're just going to have to maintain our own. as regards TPT whenever I get them I send them to you. My idea is to combine yours and mine then do a case number sort and remove duplications -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Sun, 10 May 2020 - 22:42
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
They do mine now a list of 650 cases + I copied yours a while ago but never got would to combining both. I will soon and add a reason to each How long is a while? I've been adding cases whenever a new general point has come up. I also think we need to do our best to combine TPT decisions, as there's no official online database we're just going to have to maintain our own. as regards TPT whenever I get them I send them to you. My idea is to combine yours and mine then do a case number sort and remove duplications I know you do I was making a general comment. Sounds like a plan, do you have yours in spreadsheet format? -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Mon, 11 May 2020 - 07:19
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
They do mine now a list of 650 cases + I copied yours a while ago but never got would to combining both. I will soon and add a reason to each How long is a while? I've been adding cases whenever a new general point has come up. I also think we need to do our best to combine TPT decisions, as there's no official online database we're just going to have to maintain our own. as regards TPT whenever I get them I send them to you. My idea is to combine yours and mine then do a case number sort and remove duplications I know you do I was making a general comment. Sounds like a plan, do you have yours in spreadsheet format? Yes but its very untidy, more like notes an aid memoir' I will tidy it up a bit and send it to you if you wish -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Mon, 11 May 2020 - 07:35
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Yes but its very untidy, more like notes an aid memoir' I will tidy it up a bit and send it to you if you wish Sure -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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