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[NIP Wizard] Speeding - both sides not getting letters!
scareddriver1101
post Tue, 5 Aug 2014 - 11:07
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - October 2013
Date of the NIP: - 11 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 139 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A23 Broomeed Lance overbridge
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - In the middle of February i get a NIP (dated 24/02/14) saying that a car in my name had been caught exceeding 70mph on a dual carriage way. Offence date was early October.

I write back saying that the letter is months late and that it is not valid. They reply saying I have to reply or I will get a summons. I reply reiterating that the NIP is late, and that I cannot remember who was driving the car in october (it is a shared car, my wife and I both use it). I ask them for a photo. I get the photo. The picture is not clear, but i suspect from the size of the hand that it is my wife. I reply to them saying that i think my wife was driving, but that this only a belief.

Next thing i know I'm getting a summons. I write to them again, resending the last letter, asking why they are prosecuting. They say, the courts will deal with it and that they did not get my last letter.


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - No
Was there a valid reason for the NIP's late arrival? - Unsure
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - No
Were you driving? - Unsure
Do you know who was driving? - Unsure who was driving

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • As you are not the person keeping the vehicle you are required to provide such information as is in your power to give, especially the name and addresses of the person who was the person keeping the vehicle at the time of the offence (if you know it). You should also tell them the names and addresses of the possible drivers if you know them. You should ask the police to supply a photo.

    Although the reasonable diligence test doesn't apply to you, because you are the Registered Keeper and have a real connection with the vehicle, the police are likely to take a tougher line so you should send a covering letter explaining the circumstances in more detail. You should reply within the 28 day period.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 11:07:45 +0000
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post Tue, 5 Aug 2014 - 11:07
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Kickaha
post Tue, 5 Aug 2014 - 11:41
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What offence(s) is/are on the summons?

Was there any reason for the late NIP ( recently moved new car etc), and what did you do to try and ID the driver?
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sgtdixie
post Tue, 5 Aug 2014 - 11:43
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The requirement is valid even if the NIP is out of time. As it is you were required to name the driver. You believe it was your wife but what is required in law is you to name the driver, not give an equivocal answer. As such you are unlikely to have a decent defence I'm afraid. Had you come here in February we could have given you advice, as it is it's far too late as you can't even do a deal to admit the speeding instead of the failing to furnish as you don't believe you were driving.
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NeverMind
post Tue, 5 Aug 2014 - 11:44
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QUOTE (scareddriver1101 @ Tue, 5 Aug 2014 - 12:07) *
I write back saying that the letter is months late and that it is not valid. They reply saying I have to reply or I will get a summons. I reply reiterating that the NIP is late


Regardless of the lateness of the NIP, the S172 still has to be replied to ... I'm guessing that the summons is for failure to furnish?

Shame, because if the NIP really was late you could have just named yourself and been safe from a speeding conviction....
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peterguk
post Tue, 5 Aug 2014 - 11:45
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The S172 request for driver details was a valid request whether the NIP was out of time or not.

If you replied saying you "thought" or "believed" your wife was probably driving, then that was an invalid response.

IMHO, a summons for failing to supply driver details has been correctly issued.


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scareddriver1101
post Tue, 5 Aug 2014 - 11:47
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Hi,

Thank you so much for replying.

Offence: "Speeding - motor vehicle exceed 70 mph on a dual carriageway - manned equipment (automatic camera device/speed detection device) travelling at 80mph on 09/10/2013"

Why could it have been late: I really dont know. We havent moved house in the past 15 years the car has been in our name for about 8 years. I mean we live in a gated development of three houses and so the post man would need to know how to get in, but saying that he does! We nearly always get our post. I say nearly because every now and then (maybe two or three times a year) someone will say that they sent us something that we will not have received. But that is very much the exception rather than the norm. My name was spelt wrong on the NIP, but only a letter out, and that should not have any effect on the post, the address was correct.#

ID the driver: Checked our respective credit card bills to see if petrol was filled and asked for a photo. The photo was unclear, but from the size of hand on the steering wheel, which was about all i could make out, it looked like it was the other half. So i replied on this basis.

Summons: summons is for both the original speeding offence and the failure to provide.

This post has been edited by scareddriver1101: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 - 11:51
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sgtdixie
post Tue, 5 Aug 2014 - 11:51
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Is that the only offence on the summons?
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Kickaha
post Tue, 5 Aug 2014 - 11:52
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If that is the only charge then your very lucky.

If it were me I would plead not guilty and state that from the photo it was probably my wife driving for the reasons given.

See what others think.
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scareddriver1101
post Tue, 5 Aug 2014 - 11:53
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No - the summons has both the offences on it.
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sgtdixie
post Tue, 5 Aug 2014 - 11:56
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That means you can't do a deal and will either have to defend the s172 or plead guilty.
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scareddriver1101
post Tue, 5 Aug 2014 - 11:58
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QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Tue, 5 Aug 2014 - 12:56) *
That means you can't do a deal and will either have to defend the s172 or plead guilty.


Oh great........The summons has both (1) the speeding offence; and (2) the s172. So I have to either pleasd guilty to both or defend both?


Also - i just checked the s172 form that i filled out, i named my wife as the driver. All of the extra information about it just being my belief etc. was written on a covering letter.

I have made a mess of this havent i? All because i legit could not remember who was driving!

This post has been edited by scareddriver1101: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 - 12:00
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Kickaha
post Tue, 5 Aug 2014 - 11:59
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Your only defence to failing to furnish is the lateness of the NIP making it difficult to ascertain the driver. Asking for the photo will help, and any other steps you took at the time that you can inform the court of. Have they said that this was the first NIP?
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scareddriver1101
post Tue, 5 Aug 2014 - 12:04
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QUOTE (Kickaha @ Tue, 5 Aug 2014 - 12:59) *
Your only defence to failing to furnish is the lateness of the NIP making it difficult to ascertain the driver. Asking for the photo will help, and any other steps you took at the time that you can inform the court of. Have they said that this was the first NIP?


No, so the NIP saga is as follows:

- Offence in October 2013
-Get a NIP in February dated 24/02/14
- I query the lateness. Sussex police never say they sent one earlier.
- In the "summons pack of documents" i see there is a NIP dated October, which would have been in time. On the bottom right there is a stamp by someone working there saying the day they posted it.

Frankly, i accept that things can get lost in the post and that it is not their fault. It must happen all the time. So, whilst it would be nice to get away on a technicality if the NIP is late, that isnt really my primary argument (unles you lot tell me it is!). My concern is that I did respond by filling in the s172, but now they are saying that they didnt receive this.
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peterguk
post Tue, 5 Aug 2014 - 12:11
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Even if they had received your reply, by your own words of what you wrote, your reply was not sufficient to satisfy the request.


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Kickaha
post Tue, 5 Aug 2014 - 12:33
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I suggest that you stop drip feeding us and give us all the info.
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Jlc
post Tue, 5 Aug 2014 - 12:45
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On the assumption that your wife was driving and you did not unequivocally name the driver then the speeding conviction will not stick (unless you plead guilty to it but you shouldn't as you weren't driving). Therefore, it's only the failing to furnish charge to concern yourself with.

From what I can gather you did supply her details but added a covering note which casts doubt on the nomination - they may not of received the nomination but even if they did you would still be in the same situation.

You need to decide how you plead to the failing to furnish. There is a statutory defence that if you can convince the bench that you have taken reasonable diligence to ascertain the driver identity then you will be found not guilty. Pleading guilty to this offence will see 6 points and a fine around £400-600. Defending the allegation will lose the 33% discount and you would be liable for prosecution costs should you lose.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Kickaha
post Tue, 5 Aug 2014 - 12:50
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This answer from the NIP wizard needs clarifying.

QUOTE (scareddriver1101 @ Tue, 5 Aug 2014 - 12:07) *
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - No

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scareddriver1101
post Tue, 5 Aug 2014 - 12:50
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QUOTE (Kickaha @ Tue, 5 Aug 2014 - 13:33) *
I suggest that you stop drip feeding us and give us all the info.


Really sorry - i'm just getting ahead of myself here. Here is the absolute full story.

The car: Registered in my name. Both myself and my wife use it, but the wife uses it more than me. I'd say that she's the "keeper".

The facts as i became aware:

- In late February I get a NIP. It is dated 24/02/14. It says that I the driver of the car committed an offence (Speeding 80 in a 70 zone) on 09/10/2013.
- I reply to this letter saying that the offence was said to have occurred four months ago. Therefore the NIP is late (I now understand that 172 is different). I ask them (mid march) if they can provide proof of posting the NIP in time. I say that I cannot remember who was driving the vehicle and that a picture would be helpful.
- I get a response back within a week from my letter with a picture. It is a forward facing camera. But you really cannot see who is driving at all. However, there is a hand on the steering wheel. It looks like it is my wife's.
- I respond to the NIP. I fill in the form on the back giving my wife's details as the driver. I enclose a covering letter that explains how i came to my conclusion, saying something along the lines of "i'm in my 60's, never had a conviction before. i'm more likely than not sure that it was my wife driving, so i have put her details down."
- I hear nothing back till the first week of April, which is a summons. It includes both charges (1) speeding; and (2) failure to name the driver. The pack of documents enclosed is the first time i see the NIP dated October 2013. It dated within a few days of the offence and has a stamp on the bottom saying the date it was posted.
- I write back instantly asking why I got a summons when I gave my wife's details.
- They reply back saying that they did not get my filled out NIP form + covering letter and that the matter has now been passed on to the magistrate.
- Hearing scheduled for October (ironically on my birthday).


Hope this help. Once again - thank you all for yuor advice, really helpful.

This post has been edited by scareddriver1101: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 - 12:52
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peterguk
post Tue, 5 Aug 2014 - 12:57
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...

This post has been edited by peterguk: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 - 13:01


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NeverMind
post Tue, 5 Aug 2014 - 13:14
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QUOTE (scareddriver1101 @ Tue, 5 Aug 2014 - 13:50) *
I enclose a covering letter that explains how i came to my conclusion, saying something along the lines of "i'm in my 60's, never had a conviction before. i'm more likely than not sure that it was my wife driving, so i have put her details down."


This is not acceptable as a S172 reply, so you probably would have ended up with a summons whether they received it or not.


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