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PCN for parking in a P&D bay with time limited residents parking permit allowance
TheDangerman
post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 21:02
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Hi,

I'm new to residents parking permits and have been misled by a confusing sign, or at least, I genuinely believed I was parking in the right place. Hopefully the photos will be clear. Any grounds for challenging it?

I've moved the car now but all other bays on the street don't have this restriction, and we are 10 minutes walk from the High Street! Having thought about it they really penalise shift workers and discourage ad-hoc public transport use if first you have to move your car for the workday! Oh well rant over, hope someone can help!

Many thanks.



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post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 21:02
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cp8759
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 20:51
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Sign looks clear to me, post the council photos.


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TheDangerman
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 06:28
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There are other pictures including a token test, and a picture of my residents permit, but this is the only photo of my car with the sign. Sorry for the dodgy obscuring of my car, but its highly distinctive in the area being a classic. Hence why they couldn't work out the Make of the vehicle.

I understand the sign now I've studied it but it caught me out because all other bays bar this bank of 3 just say "Permit Holders Only" , so I thought it meant Pay and Display was allowed, not required. Added to this someone parks semi permanently in the next one but turns out he has a blue badge.

Many thanks.

This post has been edited by TheDangerman: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 08:37
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 07:07
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The sign is inadequate if it provides drivers with differing times to purchase a ticket. The top section indicates 8.00 to 9.00, then a gap until 1600. One would believe at a quick glance that a ticket was not required after 9.00. However the bottom section indicates a ticket is required between 9.00 and 1600.

IMO this sign does not fulfil the Council's duty not to confuse or mislead under Reg 18 LATOR 1996.

Mick
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hcandersen
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 08:30
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?
IMO, it's perfectly compliant. What else could it be, it couldn't be 09.00.01 because this is not a permitted expression of time.

On Mon-Fri, up to 9am permits apply, 9am - 4pm they don't.

Just make a simple challenge asking for discretion - new permit holder who presumably lives in the road - just getting used to the variety of signs used etc.

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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 10:18
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@hca

The top sign also says pay and display so it is not solely about permits. I'll stick to it being inadequate. The bottom part looks like a later addition IMO. The requirements of this shared use bay could have been much better indicated.

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 10:22
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cp8759
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 23:27
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QUOTE (TheDangerman @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 07:28) *
There are other pictures including a token test, and a picture of my residents permit, but this is the only photo of my car with the sign.

Are there any other council photos of the sign? If the council hasn't got (readable) evidence of what the sign says, they don't have a case.


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TheDangerman
post Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 05:34
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Many thanks for the replies so far.

That's the clearest photo of my car with the sign, there's a standalone picture of the sign that is very clear but does not show my car. All others just show me parked in a generic bay.
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hcandersen
post Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 07:00
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Permits have to be displayed because that's one of their stated terms of use. Display is not required to be stated on the sign.

Permit identifier, pay at machine and display ticket, see items 7 and 2 of the Part 4 Sign Table:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/4/made

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 17:34
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TheDangerman
post Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 09:19
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If that is that clearest photo they have and its unreadable to me, is there a specific wording I need to use to lodge the appeal?
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 12:29
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I'm with Mick on this. The main sign says permit holders or, we know how signs are made up but the man on the Clapham omnibus doesn't. In this case the addition of the word only in the second plate would have made it obvious


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cp8759
post Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 18:00
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 13:29) *
...the man on the Clapham omnibus doesn't.

Surely the man on the Clapham omnibus gets around on the omnibus, so he doesn't concern himself with parking matters?

On a serious note, I this it's (slightly) more likely than not that an adjudicator would say the sign is compliant.


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TheDangerman
post Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 17:17
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 00:27) *
QUOTE (TheDangerman @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 07:28) *
There are other pictures including a token test, and a picture of my residents permit, but this is the only photo of my car with the sign.

Are there any other council photos of the sign? If the council hasn't got (readable) evidence of what the sign says, they don't have a case.


Does the sign need to visible with the car in shot or can it be a standalone picture without context?
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hcandersen
post Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 17:38
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This is clutching at straws.

What did you actually think the sign meant?

If that permit holders could park when you did, then what part of the sign led you to this belief?
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cp8759
post Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 19:14
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 18:38) *
This is clutching at straws.

+1, strictly speaking no photos are needed at all.


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TheDangerman
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 07:35
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 18:38) *
This is clutching at straws.

What did you actually think the sign meant?

If that permit holders could park when you did, then what part of the sign led you to this belief?


-It says Permit Holders
- I'm a new permit holder in the area
-I have never before seen a permit holders space that is not valid 24/7
-Every other row of spaces on my 200 yard street is a 'full' permit bay (I've now checked)
- We aren't near any commercial buildings
- A 4x4 parks there 24/7, but I've now seen he has a blue badge
-I was tired having driven back from Munich overnight and had parked around 0400hrs

I've been involved in enough accident investigations to know that when human beings are presented with information they can easily succumb to confirmation bias despite contradictory evidence that can be screaming at them.

Sometimes I internally think "what were you thinking?!" but try to remain objective in how the evidence was presented to the person involved.

Many thanks for the constructive responses.
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TheDangerman
post Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 17:53
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The PCN was withdrawn after the Council decided not to contest the appeal.

However it was almost certainly due one or both of:-

- Sending out a Charge Certificate 6 days after the appeal was accepted

- Sending out the Charge Certificate without allowing the full 28 days to pay or appeal once Christmas posting deadlines were taken into consideration.


Many thanks for the constructive responses given.
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Incandescent
post Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 22:33
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Very well done, but I have to say that I don't find the sign difficult, but then I'm sitting in my nice warm lounge with time to look at it (photo).Lots of people are in a bit of a rush when parking, so are not so careful when working out what they must do.
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