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Confused by signage-can we park without a permit in the bays?
Zazaa
post Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 10:39
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Hiya,

What does this sign mean? Can we park in a bay without a permit, because I've read it as that way- as long as we are in a bay, we can park there?
I ask, because a PCN has been received now.



There's also this sign:


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post Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 10:39
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Starworshipper12
post Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 11:55
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Google street view please. Post both sides of the PCN, or read this:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=125502

This post has been edited by Starworshipper12: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 11:56
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hcandersen
post Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 12:23
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If the 'permit holders' only sign marks an area and if within this area there are marked parking spaces and if these are signed, possbly as per the second photo, then unless you hold a T1 or T3 permit the answer to your question is No, you cannot park.

Sequentially:
Once you pass the Permit Holders only sign you cannot park outside a 'marked bay' unless you hold a T3 permit; and
if a bay is marked as a parking place and carries a sign restricting parking then unless you qualify, perhaps as per photo no. 2 i.e. hold a T1 permit, then ..

...move on, this area is not for you.

The strict interpretation is that 'marked bay' is NOT 'parking place' unless the markings conform to prescribed markings and the bay is signed in some way.

A marked bay (what about a street trading pitch!! see the thread http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=125933,) without a traffic sign would allow anyone to park.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 12:25
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cp8759
post Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 14:44
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You can park in any bay past that sign, providing you comply with any restrictions applicable to that particular bay. If you want help, see post 2.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Zazaa
post Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 15:22
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This post has been edited by Zazaa: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 15:21
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stamfordman
post Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 15:25
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It is ambiguous of course. Such signage should be challenged.
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hcandersen
post Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 15:25
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It's nonsense.

See my previous post: within a 'permit holder's only' zone this restriction applies to unmarked areas only.

You are clearly parked where there is a dashed white line indicating that you are within a marked bay of some sort. In which case the 'permit holder's only' restriction does not apply and their consideration is pants.

We need to see where you were on GSV.
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cp8759
post Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 15:43
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 16:25) *
It's nonsense.

See my previous post: within a 'permit holder's only' zone this restriction applies to unmarked areas only.

You are clearly parked where there is a dashed white line indicating that you are within a marked bay of some sort. In which case the 'permit holder's only' restriction does not apply and their consideration is pants.

We need to see where you were on GSV.

+1, they haven't even told you what the supposed bay restrictions are.

Also show us both sides of the PCN in full.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 15:46


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No, I am not a lawyer.
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Zazaa
post Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 16:13
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 15:25) *
It's nonsense.

See my previous post: within a 'permit holder's only' zone this restriction applies to unmarked areas only.

You are clearly parked where there is a dashed white line indicating that you are within a marked bay of some sort. In which case the 'permit holder's only' restriction does not apply and their consideration is pants.

We need to see where you were on GSV.



our thoughts exactly... residents to park anywhere, but if you're in a bay without a permit, you're fine... That was our understanding. Give me a few hours- not at home atm, where the pcn is.


Just for reference, this is the email contesting the pcn that was sent:


Good afternoon,

I received a parking fine on 29/1/19 at 11.41am for parking in a permit space without displaying a valid permit.

However I wish to dispute this ticket. The sign clearly says permit holders only - except in marked bays (please see attachment). I was parked in a marked bay so should therefore not receive any penalty.

There were no further signs or notices on the street or bays to indicate that there were any other restrictions to parking there.

Please review the evidence and I would appreciate a response from you at your earliest convenience.

Kind regards,
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DancingDad
post Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 17:25
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The lower panel is not a permitted expression BTW.
The correct is "“Except in signed bay” (can be bays)
Being as there is a substantial difference between a marked bay, ie road markings and a signed bay, ie markings and a restriction sign, this should not be swept aside by "substantial compliance"
The rejection letter suggests that the council does not understand the distinction.
Council may have authorisation but I cannot see the DoT allowing a change of words unless allowing vehicles to park in marked but unsigned bays is the desire.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 17:26
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Incandescent
post Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 17:25
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Until we see what the PCN was issued for, we can't give advice. The marked bays may have their own restrictions of time allowed or whatever. Of course each bay will need a sign indicating what the restrictions are, so must be present.
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hcandersen
post Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 19:00
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@Incandescent, with respect this is not the point. The rejection relies on the Permit Holder's Only sign and restriction and by implication claims, wrongly, that its provisions apply within what appears to be a clearly marked bay. If they were to repeat this nonsense in a NOR then IMO it would be all over for them because they don't know the law they're supposed to be applying.
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Incandescent
post Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 19:36
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 19:00) *
@Incandescent, with respect this is not the point. The rejection relies on the Permit Holder's Only sign and restriction and by implication claims, wrongly, that its provisions apply within what appears to be a clearly marked bay. If they were to repeat this nonsense in a NOR then IMO it would be all over for them because they don't know the law they're supposed to be applying.

Fair enough
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Zazaa
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 10:26
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Good morning,

Apologies for the delay.

PCN detail are:


Front:

Back:


What is one meant to do? Pay the reduced pcn? Their response didn't really address the point that we made when contesting it. We never once said "we weren't aware it was a permit zone." Wrote that we were within the area we were under the impression it was ok to park.

This post has been edited by Zazaa: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 10:29
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Neil B
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 11:21
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You haven't shown us where you parked and any sign on the bay you were in.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Earl Purple
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 11:35
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My guess is that unmarked areas are for permit T3 only and the bay is for permit T1.

The sign shows a restriction for areas that do not have their own.

If he were parked in a bay with that sign "Permit holders T1 only" clearly displayed then I'd say the discount looks good.
If that sign is not clearly displayed around the vicinity of the bay then it may be worth challenging.

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DancingDad
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 11:36
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 11:21) *
You haven't shown us where you parked and any sign on the bay you were in.



That's what I would like to see plus a streetview location, it is a long road so would like you to point us to the place.


The entry sign uses a non prescribed expression and is ambiguous, both good arguments.
But both would be watered down if you were parked in a bay clearly signed Permit Holder
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Zazaa
post Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 10:38
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There are no signs or restrictions where the dotted bays are. The only sign is that on the pic, which says it's a permit only zone, and that is located/placed as you enter the road/street.
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DancingDad
post Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 10:41
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QUOTE (Zazaa @ Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 10:38) *
There are no signs or restrictions where the dotted bays are. The only sign is that on the pic, which says it's a permit only zone, and that is located/placed as you enter the road/street.


Streetview link please
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Zazaa
post Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 10:43
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Malta Road is perpendicular to Dock Road.


Calcutta road is parallel to Dock Road.

Was parked opposite the primary school.



https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4614327,0.3...6384!8i8192

This post has been edited by Zazaa: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 10:47
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