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Please help 4 tickets and more to come - No car entry during school run, Threads merged
a1cars
post Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 11:50
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Hi,
I cannot describe how furious I am because the council decided to make this road for pedestrians only between our school run...it's a disaster as we go every day, twice and it's only now that we are getting the tickets, so far four and more on the way. We have been going through this road for the past six or seven years and one can certainly not notice signage, especially if there are not reminder at the beginning of the road.

Now my only hope is the signage that I hope it is not compliant, please assist as this will cost me few hundreds, if not a thousand or more.






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Signage:









Camera signage facing other way way




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post Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 11:50
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stamfordman
post Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 11:58
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Came into force on 7 January - are any PCNs warning ones? When did you first drive through there on 7th and after?

Did the school not send you any notice of this?

https://beta.camden.gov.uk/documents/20142/...9a-da2ea6635270

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 11:59
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 12:30
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The contravention is going into a Pedestrian Zone but there is nothing in the ETRO about such a zone being established. The Order is about permitted routes in other words vehicles are not permitted to pass that point----nowt about a Pedestrian Zone.

Wait for others to comment.

Mick
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a1cars
post Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 12:41
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 11:58) *
Came into force on 7 January - are any PCNs warning ones? When did you first drive through there on 7th and after?

Did the school not send you any notice of this?

https://beta.camden.gov.uk/documents/20142/...9a-da2ea6635270



We take our kids to a nearby school.

We received no warning letters, or PCN warning.


We drive twice a day, at the moment we are receiving PCN's from the 21, 22, 23 and 28th, this is my wife's car, mine nothing yet, but we both use that road and for years, the only time we don't is if there is traffic or we decide to go for shopping.

This post has been edited by a1cars: Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 12:56
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a1cars
post Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 14:49
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Is there a ground for appeal, and if so (really I hope ) under what ground.

The signage looks to me not compliant.
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peterguk
post Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 14:53
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QUOTE (a1cars @ Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 14:49) *
The signage looks to me not compliant.

In what way What are you comparing it to?


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stamfordman
post Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 14:56
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The ground for appeal may be that you weren't aware of the restriction until you got the first PCN. They are sometimes receptive to this and will cancel all but the first.

That it only went live on 7 Jan will be in your favour.
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a1cars
post Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 15:46
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 14:53) *
QUOTE (a1cars @ Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 14:49) *
The signage looks to me not compliant.

In what way What are you comparing it to?


It is split in two pieces.
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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 9 Feb 2019 - 12:03
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The traffic order is in this batch:-

https://www.camden.gov.uk/documents/20142/0...9a-da2ea6635270

It says nothing about the establishment of a Pedestrian Zone ergo the contravention given to the OP cannot be enforced IMO. As I said earlier this is about prescribed, even proscribed, routes.

I would just ask the Council to cancel the PCN because the ETO does not establish a Pedestrian Zone and therefore a contravention for being in one is therefore invalid and the PCN becomes a nullity.

Mick
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cp8759
post Sun, 10 Feb 2019 - 01:25
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sat, 9 Feb 2019 - 12:03) *
The traffic order is in this batch:-

https://www.camden.gov.uk/documents/20142/0...9a-da2ea6635270

It says nothing about the establishment of a Pedestrian Zone ergo the contravention given to the OP cannot be enforced IMO. As I said earlier this is about prescribed, even proscribed, routes.

I would just ask the Council to cancel the PCN because the ETO does not establish a Pedestrian Zone and therefore a contravention for being in one is therefore invalid and the PCN becomes a nullity.

Mick

+1, this is a simple case really. The Camden (Waiting and Loading Restrictions and Prescribed Routes) Experimental Traffic Order (No. 4) 2018 does not create a pedestrian zone, it creates a prescribed route. Therefore the alleged contravention did not occur.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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hcandersen
post Sun, 10 Feb 2019 - 09:28
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Schedule 1 defines the marked zone as:
"pedestrian and cycle zone”
an area—
(a)which has been laid out to improve amenity for pedestrians and cyclists; and
(b)to which the entry of vehicles, except pedal cycles, is prohibited or restricted


So OP,

The order, and IMO more importantly the Statement of Reasons, makes it absolutely clear that this is not a pedestrian measure, it is simply a restriction on vehicles entering a section of a road and that they have erected the wrong signs and used the wrong contravention.

And as for whoever drafted this gem!
Emergency service vehicles attending an emergency call within this section of Savernake Road will also be exempt from the restriction.

So if the fire is just beyond this road, the engines would have to take what might be a circuitous and more time consuming route to reach it because it's not in the 'section of the road'

Edit
OP, have you entered this road since receivng your first PCN?
Notwithstanding the incorrect signs and contravention, having regard to the purpose of the restriction -to improve safety for schoolchildren - and considering that you have schoolchildren, what do you intend to do, carry on as normal or change your routine?

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sun, 10 Feb 2019 - 09:58
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a1cars
post Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 12:05
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 10 Feb 2019 - 09:28) *
Edit
OP, have you entered this road since receivng your first PCN?
Notwithstanding the incorrect signs and contravention, having regard to the purpose of the restriction -to improve safety for schoolchildren - and considering that you have schoolchildren, what do you intend to do, carry on as normal or change your routine?



Thank you.

Since I received my first PCN I stopped using it.

I have to change routine because I cannot gamble on £130 / day fine.


The council could improve the safety of schoolchildren with a better layout, this is a making money scheme.

So you summed up the ground of appeal argument above and will follow suit.

I noticed that his is only a temporary order, would mean with less prerequisites in terms of following guidance.

QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sat, 9 Feb 2019 - 12:03) *
The traffic order is in this batch:-

https://www.camden.gov.uk/documents/20142/0...9a-da2ea6635270

It says nothing about the establishment of a Pedestrian Zone ergo the contravention given to the OP cannot be enforced IMO. As I said earlier this is about prescribed, even proscribed, routes.

I would just ask the Council to cancel the PCN because the ETO does not establish a Pedestrian Zone and therefore a contravention for being in one is therefore invalid and the PCN becomes a nullity.

Mick



I will use all the arguments, thanks

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 10 Feb 2019 - 01:25) *
QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sat, 9 Feb 2019 - 12:03) *
The traffic order is in this batch:-

https://www.camden.gov.uk/documents/20142/0...9a-da2ea6635270

It says nothing about the establishment of a Pedestrian Zone ergo the contravention given to the OP cannot be enforced IMO. As I said earlier this is about prescribed, even proscribed, routes.

I would just ask the Council to cancel the PCN because the ETO does not establish a Pedestrian Zone and therefore a contravention for being in one is therefore invalid and the PCN becomes a nullity.

Mick

+1, this is a simple case really. The Camden (Waiting and Loading Restrictions and Prescribed Routes) Experimental Traffic Order (No. 4) 2018 does not create a pedestrian zone, it creates a prescribed route. Therefore the alleged contravention did not occur.



Thanks for the tips really appreciated, I am just waiting for the other PCN's to make a represenation. Can I also make a representation based on the registration of the vehicle and all its consequence PCN's

This post has been edited by a1cars: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 12:06
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John U.K.
post Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 12:07
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Post your draft here for comment before sending.
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a1cars
post Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 17:11
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Here is a draft. Please feel free to criticize, thanks


QUOTE
RE: PCN ************

Dear Sir/ Madam,

We ( Myself and my wife driving two different vehicles ) have been driving our kids to school through Savernake Road NW3 twice a day ( on our way back ) since 2011 and it never came to our attention that you put restrictions on that road between the hours of our school run, the signage, layout and warning was almost non existent on Constantine Road, but managed to placed one on the right side, hardly visible on Pond Street. Also the camera signage was deliberately facing the other way ( like parking sign ) and invisible to any driver.

Currently I received four tickets from my wife's car and I am expecting few other from her and myself driving the other vehicle. We were not aware of the restrictions until we received our four tickets on the same day, note that the alledged contravention occurred on the 21/01/19 and we were only notified two weeks later, if there were any deterrent approach to this surely you could have sent us warning letters sent to us to prevent us from accumulating more tickets.

I went back to the restricted road and I found out that the signage [ restriction ] erected could not be compliant, attached is the picture for better illustration. I believe this is due to the fact that such restrictions apply only to school terms and you might have needed temporary signage easy to remove, but the fact that they were not attached together properly, with symmetrically differences that make the signage poorly visible and legible at certain angle.


Further more, the contravention did not occur, it is only a restriction on vehicles entering a section of a road and the PCN states that I have entered a pedestrian Zone, you have erected the wrong sign and used the wrong contravention.


The order says nothing about the establishment of a Pedestrian Zone, therefore a contravention for being in one is therefore invalid. Further more

2. Any vehicles parked in the above section outside the above proposed restriction times that wish to exit the restricted section, can do so at any time. This is certainly not a pedestrian Zone only.

4.1 Whilst this order remains in force, the provisions of the Camden (Waiting and Loading Restrictions) (Civil Enforcement Area) Traffic Order 2012 [2012 No. 1] shall have effect as though there were included with the items relating to Rona Road and Savernake Road

5. Residents who live and have registered parking permits on the section of Savernake Road between Mansfield Road and Rona Road, as well as registered blue badge holders (see note in section 3.7), will receive an exemption which will allow them to enter and exit at any time. Residents who live on the above section but do not have a parking permit (because they park on private land / driveways) will be issued free of charge an exemption to enter the road section at any time, in order to access their properties at any time.


All the above do not create a pedestrian zone, it creates a prescribed route. Therefore the alleged contravention did not occur.



Finally...

Schedule 1 defines the marked zone as:
"pedestrian and cycle zone”
an area—
(a)which has been laid out to improve amenity for pedestrians and cyclists; and
(b)to which the entry of vehicles, except pedal cycles, is prohibited or restricted

The order is not a pedestrian measure, it is simply a restriction on vehicles entering a section of a road and that the Local Authority have erected the wrong signs and used the wrong contravention.



Considering all the above, I request you cancel all PCN's issued to my vehicles with registration : VRM *********** and *********

Regards
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cp8759
post Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 23:14
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You have to make representations against the PCNs explicitly, you can't just say "this is an appeal against all PCNs issued to VRM ***** and *****". Therefore you need to list the PCN numbers, and if you get more, you'll need to submit new representations.

I would drop the bit about the signs not being symmetrical, as the signs will almost certainly be substantially compliant.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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a1cars
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 11:15
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 23:14) *
You have to make representations against the PCNs explicitly, you can't just say "this is an appeal against all PCNs issued to VRM ***** and *****". Therefore you need to list the PCN numbers, and if you get more, you'll need to submit new representations.

I would drop the bit about the signs not being symmetrical, as the signs will almost certainly be substantially compliant.



I heard that you can make a blanket representation based on VRM, but in this case I will just wait for the rest of the PCN's and will do it all, just in case if they learn from the Representations or the Order and change it later on to succeed against any appeal.

I might be a bit stubborn here, but I still think that the signage is not within the norms, by standing on one side you could hardly see one of the restricted time ( 9 AM ).

This post has been edited by a1cars: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 11:16
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stamfordman
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 11:22
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You can certainly include a point about the signage - presumably you didn't see it or register it as a change. Are there any advance warnings about the change?
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a1cars
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 12:04
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No advise warnings at all, and poor warning sign that had been erected far away, not at the entrance of the road, but the one before it, on the right hand side.

It suggest that this was not done to prevent drivers using the road during school time, but to generate money.
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a1cars
post Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 11:39
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I racked up 9 tickets !!! the last one was received yesterday. and this is only for the mrs car...

Please any additional advice on this before I submit the appeal would be a lot appreciated. If cancelled my appreciation to this forum will be with a substantial donation.
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cp8759
post Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 16:26
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Post a draft of your representations here first.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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