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PCN from TfL - Northolt
TJP
post Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 11:28
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Can I ask for help here please but I'm not sure I've got a leg to stand on, even though it was an honest mistake. This is a Penalty Charge Notice from TfL.

We don't live near London but every year we go down to Ace Cafe and every year we stop at the same Tesco Express afterwards on the way to a hotel in Hayes, to pick up a sandwich. This time I seem to have inadvertently parked in the only "space" which is oddly a red route and not a space at all!

Even though I left my wife and two girls (a baby and a toddler) in the car, I presume it is still classed as parking or at the very least, stopping on a red route?

This is the the Penalty Charge Notice.


As you can see it is addressed to "The Company Secretary" but it was sent to my home address and I am the private keeper of the vehicle in my own name.


This is a screenshot of Google maps showing the location


And two screenshots from Street view.




I was stopped where the van is stopped on the Street view pictures above. The "space" is a slightly different size to the proper parking spaces either side of it. I'm not 100% sure but pretty sure there was no lettering on the road (but it was dark). Crucially though, it shows there is a sign which I must have totally missed because I was so sure I was parking legally and didn't check! :-(

It took me ages to find this location, as the reference on the penalty notice (OS484-486 CHURCH ROAD UB5) didn't come up in a Google maps search. However, tracing my route, I found the correct Tesco Express and where I parked is actually on a potentially unnamed road, alongside the A312 Church Road in Northolt UB5 5AU (but maybe this is also called Church Road?).

This notice arrived yesterday (13th December 2018) and the alleged offence was on 1st December 2018.

So I presume I've got no grounds to challenge it even though it is extremely sneaky to put a red route "space" right in the middle of the normal parking spaces?

Thanks in advance :-)
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post Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 11:28
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 11:43
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https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5372963,-...6384!8i8192

A red route on a shopping parade is a new one on me but the OP was parked in a dedicated bay.

The OP parked next to the sign so looks bang to rights but I wonder if red road markings are necessary.

Mick
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TJP
post Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 11:54
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Thanks for the reply and adding the street view Mick smile.gif

Although I cant be sure because of the van being parked there in the Streetview pictures, I'm 99% sure there were no red lines on the road there, just the slightly wider white dotted lined box and the sign (which I stupidly missed and will be my downfall probably).

If you look on the other side of the road (further back towards the roundabout) there is a small section with no parking boxes and double red lines which is presumably a red route area too? Also presuming it is there to keep the area clear for the road crossing?
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cp8759
post Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 12:20
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The purpose of the restriction (whether to keep a crossing free or whatever else) is irrelevant. The road is designated as a red route, which means no stopping at any time. There is an exemption to the no stopping restriction in that bay if you stop for the purposes of loading, but you were not loading so you were unlawfully stopped. In the circumstances, I would recommend you pay the discount.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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John U.K.
post Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 12:40
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"Company Secretary"

Does the advice in this thread
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=124759
not also apply here??

This post has been edited by John U.K.: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 12:41
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cp8759
post Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 12:47
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Good spot, yes it does. At which point you could adopt the same approach.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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stamfordman
post Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 12:49
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TFL has a glitch in its PCNs, clearly. What a shower. You would have thought they'd have some process for checking they are picking up V5C properly but I guess a software fault is running riot.
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TJP
post Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 10:08
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Thanks for the advice :-)

My PCN is exactly the same and says "The Company Secretary" on the top line of the address then my number/street name, town, city, post code on the following 4 lines below.
Interestingly, my PCN incident was the same date as the one in the other thread too (1st December 2018).

So shall I adopt the same approach as in the other thread and as advised below?
"I wouldn't frame it as an appeal. Just send the PCN back with a covering letter (keep a copy), saying a PCN has been incorrectly served, there is no company at this address, and you're returning the PCN as a matter of courtesy so they can double check the address of the company concerned and re-send the PCN to the correct address."

Has this method worked in the past for cancelling a PCN with TfL?

Thanks again :-)
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DastardlyDick
post Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 10:46
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 12:49) *
TFL has a glitch in its PCNs, clearly. What a shower. You would have thought they'd have some process for checking they are picking up V5C properly but I guess a software fault is running riot.

That's what happens when you contract out!
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cp8759
post Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 17:38
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QUOTE (TJP @ Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 10:08) *
So shall I adopt the same approach as in the other thread and as advised below?
"I wouldn't frame it as an appeal. Just send the PCN back with a covering letter (keep a copy), saying a PCN has been incorrectly served, there is no company at this address, and you're returning the PCN as a matter of courtesy so they can double check the address of the company concerned and re-send the PCN to the correct address."

I would use that approach. A document that doesn't have your name on it has not been served on you, also as the PCN is not addressed to you you have no standing to make representations anyway.

Obviously make sure you keep a copy.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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TJP
post Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 09:57
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Thanks, I will proceed n this way.

I'm presuming the best idea is more of a covering note than a covering letter as the latter would traditionally include my name and address in the corner but I'm not sure putting the two bits of info together for them would be the best approach here! tongue.gif

I'm also presuming that I send it to the same address as the written representations which is:
Red Routes,
PO Box 335,
Darlington,
DL1 9PU

Actually, i could still go the route of a traditional letter but leave out the sign off? So I'll put their address in the top left corner and I suppose I can put my address on the right side (with the date underneath) as usual but then just leave my name out of it entirely?

Then I'll keep the main text short and sweet saying:

"REF: Penalty Charge Notice - GT********

With reference to the above Penalty Charge Notice, dated 11th December 2018, this has been incorrectly served as there is no company at this address.

The Penalty Charge Notice is enclosed and returned to yourself as a matter of courtesy."

And just end it there. Am I ok legally by doing it that way? I don't want to include my name as I feel like they will just then send the PCN back with my name and address on!

Thanks again for all the help smile.gif




Like this:

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cp8759
post Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 10:10
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I would just put a covering note with no address, name or anything else:

There is no company at this address, please find enclosed correspondence that was incorrectly served at these premises.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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TJP
post Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 10:41
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Ah ok, thanks smile.gif I'll follow your lead and update the thread if and when I hear anything back. Thanks again

I presume that would be the correct address to send this to? (it is the representation address)

This post has been edited by TJP: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 10:44
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cp8759
post Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 10:47
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Is there a returns address on the back of their envelope?

Also don't forget to keep a copy of the PCN!


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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TJP
post Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 10:52
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Unfortunately, I binned the envelope I think sad.gif It may be at the bottom of the recycling bin (which goes out tonight for collection tomorrow) so I can check when I get home later but ideally I wanted to get this sent off today to avoid any time delays or repercussions.

Colour copies already made of all the pages wink.gif

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cp8759
post Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 10:54
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I think if you send it to the representations address you can't go wrong really.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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TJP
post Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 10:57
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Cool. Thanks smile.gif
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 11:42
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No PCN has been served. If you enlighten them to this fact before the expiry of 28 days from date of contravention, One could be.


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All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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TJP
post Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 12:47
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That thought did cross my mind...

So what is my alternative approach? Return the PCN closer to the end of the 28 day period? Will this mean that they will be unable to get a legally binding PCN to me in time then?

With that in mind, when is the best time to send the PCN back? (bearing in mind that the Christmas period is approaching which could count for or against me if either my returning envelope gets delayed or if their reissued notice gets delayed!)

As I understand it, these are the facts:

1. They need to serve the PCN within 28 days of the contravention.
Eg. Contravention date was 1st December 2018, so this would have to be by 29th December 2018?

2. Any respresentation or payment of the notice must be done within 28 days of the notice date.
Eg. Notice date is 11th December 2018, so payment or representation must be made by 8th January 2019?

3. The 50% discounted rate is only available if the PCN is paid within 21 days from the notice date.
Eg. Notice date is 11th December 2018, so discounted payment needed by 1st January 2019?

(None of these account for any "stopping of the clock" situations)


So if they would have to reissue a PCN (addressed properly to me) before the 29th December 2018 to be valid, I should probably send the current PCN back to them a few days before Christmas (maybe this Friday 21st, Saturday 22nd or Monday 24th?) and hope that it arrives between Christmas and New Year. Then they may run out of time to a proper PCN over to me before 29th December?

OR

Could I could be ultra cocky and send it back after Christmas to arrive before the 8th January 2019, which would mean I am within my 28 days BUT that it is then impossible for them to reissue a valid PCN in time? (or would that be seen as me not returning it within a suitable period/duty of care and leave me on thin ice?)


I'd feel much more comfortable with the first approach to be honest.
I'd be gambling at:
a. they don't bother with a reissue of the PCN
b. they still run out of time to reissue it by 29th December 2018
c. there is noone in work at the Darlington office over the Christmas to New Year period, so again they can't reissue a valid PCN in time?

Hope that makes sense smile.gif
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cp8759
post Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 15:32
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Send it on 2nd January, then you can't really go wrong. Of course make sure you get proof of postage.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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