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VCS, office car park, no valid permit
gac
post Wed, 28 Nov 2018 - 18:52
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The driver has a parking "document" (which states it is not a PCN) from VCS which was left on their windscreen after the car was parked in the car park of a currently unoccupied office building on a business park. The "offence" is "Not displaying a valid permit" but there are currently no occupants to get a permit from, and no property owners contact details, only the letting agents.

Anything the driver/keeper can do here to appeal? It's the standard £60 within 14 days, £100 otherwise. There is no NtK yet there was just a red square piece of paper left on the car with a reference number on the back to look at the offence online, and then the rest follows in the post in a day or so. When it arrives, I'll redact and upload if required.

Thanks for any pointers.

This post has been edited by gac: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 - 11:28
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post Wed, 28 Nov 2018 - 18:52
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 11:14
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Yes, it is a complete waste of time
Did they comnet on keeper liability at all?
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gac
post Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 13:49
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 11:14) *
Yes, it is a complete waste of time
Did they comnet on keeper liability at all?

Only to point out that I had failed to name the driver, and therefore it is important that they make me aware that in this case they may pursue the RK, per Schedule 4 of POFA. They also say in this letter that "the notice sent to you clearly states" a whole bunch of text including explaining the fact that the Notice is deemed to have been received on the second working day after the Issue Date. So I need to find the original notice over the weekend and compare what the dispute rejection says with what the Notice actually says, since I believe they don't match (and this formed a second point of the dispute which they haven't commented on).
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 13:51
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Meaning they claim they are compliant. Otherwise Schedule 4 is irrelevant to them.
Yes of course you need ot find the NtK toensure you are right on this!
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gac
post Sat, 9 Feb 2019 - 18:32
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Now received a letter saying it's now been passed to the debt management team - is this one definitely going to end up in court at this point?
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Notahappykid
post Sat, 9 Feb 2019 - 19:14
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Hi gac,

I’m really interested in this sign as it is identical to the signage in the permit holder car park that my car was parked in. Also VCS. I have county court business centre papers though as all the prior correspondence was sent to my old address and I’ve not received any of them. Im currently Looking at getting my defence together and am hopeful to hear that the sign only seems to direct the terms at permit holders. ( my car was parked with permission of the permit holder) sorry not hijackingbyour post I’m just interested in following it. Any other info you get re the signage inadequacy, or otherwise, please post:-)
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MatchlessG80
post Sun, 10 Feb 2019 - 13:41
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'is this one definitely going to end up in court at this point?'

Perhaps, but will probably be a while getting to that point. Got one of these tickets in April last year based on a very similar sign to yours (probably identical). This was followed by a 'Demand for payment' in August 2018, then a 'Final Demand' later in August 2018, and just last week another 'Demand for payment'. In order to be reasonable, I responded to their 'Final Demand' as if it were a letter before claim denying the debt and indicating that they should take it to court or go away. No response to that, apart from the latest 'Demand for payment' and it looks like the letter cycle has started again! No plans to move house during the next 5 years so I can wait this one out a bit longer. Do keep us informed as it looks like there others who are in a similar position.
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gac
post Sun, 10 Feb 2019 - 13:51
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I'm planning on not responding to anything before an official "letter before county court" (so planning to ignore "Demand for Payment" and "Final Demand" from VCS themselves).

One thing that hopefully won't trip me up is the post above from Notahappykid - if VCS sent some correspondence to their old address and then suddenly got the right address for the county court paperwork, that implies that they looked up the keeper details a second time and got different details. I've now traded in the car, so if they do the same thing, there's every chance that I may not receive some of the paperwork as it may go to the new keeper...I didn't think there would be a problem doing that as they would just keep writing to me at the address they had on file, but maybe that's not right?
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Notahappykid
post Sun, 10 Feb 2019 - 15:55
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Hi gac,

In response to your post above just to clarify for your info - my CCBC claim form was also sent to my old address, i only became to receive it because my parents live on the same street as my old address and this was posted through their door in error (same surname as me). Otherwise i woudn't have have had a clue it even existed.
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 07:56
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They DO NOT get to lookup keeper details a second time.
They just use a trace serviec. Takes five minutes.
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Notahappykid
post Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 19:19
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 07:56) *
They DO NOT get to lookup keeper details a second time.
They just use a trace serviec. Takes five minutes.


What’s a trace service please?
I did read somewhere (cant remember where though) that if no reply from notices/demands they need to make reasonable efforts to confirm they are sending to the correct address. (In case dvla hols an old address - which they did in my case).
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 10:56
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Something that traces people...
Uses credit checks (that dont show on reports), checks of electroal register etc. Its a fairly obvious answer...

Yes, if they KNEW or SHOUDL HAVE KNOWn the address was incorrect they are not able to ensure "good service" of the claim form. WIthout good service a set aside is automatic.
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gac
post Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 18:41
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QUOTE (Notahappykid @ Sun, 10 Feb 2019 - 15:55) *
Hi gac,

In response to your post above just to clarify for your info - my CCBC claim form was also sent to my old address, i only became to receive it because my parents live on the same street as my old address and this was posted through their door in error (same surname as me). Otherwise i woudn't have have had a clue it even existed.

That makes sense, and makes me feel better about it.

QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 07:56) *
They DO NOT get to lookup keeper details a second time.
They just use a trace serviec. Takes five minutes.

That wasn't my concern, since I haven't moved, so my address is still valid and there's no one to trace. What bothered me was that in the case above, it _seemed_ that they had looked the details up again and started writing to the new address. If they did that with my car, they would be writing to someone who didn't even own the car at the time of the notice. Not my problem but I'd hate for someone else to eventually get a red-letter final demand or court papers that they felt pressured to pay.

But as above, that does not happen, and did not happen, so nothing to worry about and nothing further to discuss - and more importantly, I've learnt something new in the process smile.gif
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gac
post Fri, 17 May 2019 - 18:20
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For anyone keeping score, at some point in the past couple of days (I've been away from home) I've had a small claims court/Money Claim Online claim form through the door, which is the first correspondence since the Final Demand. So looks like the letter chain has finished, and the debt management team have taken action. They haven't sold the debt on, the claim form is still in the name of VCS.

I will be defending all of the claim (obviously) using the invalid NtK as discussed earlier in the thread as my defence. Hopefully that works, otherwise I'm out £185 this time around if the court don't find in my favour...

Am I likely to have to defend this in person, or is small claims court normally just settled by post/online?
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Redivi
post Fri, 17 May 2019 - 19:02
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Unless you can definitely show you were not the driver, an invalid NtK is useless as the sole point in your defence

VCS only has to persuade the judge that you were more likely than not the driver and you lose

You have to attack everything

The Particulars of claim that disclose no cause of action
Their contract if any with the landowner
The identity of the driver
The lack of signs
Impossibility of making a contract
VCS has no legal capacity to issue claim for trespass
It hasn't paid a debt collector
It hasn't paid legal costs
Legal costs can't be recovered

For now, follow the instructions to acknowledge service
You do not dispute jurisdiction
You dispute all of the claim
Do not put anything at all in the defence box - you write the defence later

Contact VCS and tell them you want :

1 Copies of all the documents and evidence that it intends to rely on
2 Copies of any other documents/letters sent to the registered keeper
3 The information provided by the DVLA regarding the details of the registered keeper
4 Any photographs of the driver
5 Any other documents that identify the driver
6 A copy of its contract with the land-owner under which it asserts the authority to bring a claim, as required by the IPC Code of Practice Section B clause 1.1
7 Copies of its contracts with debt collectors and solicitors that support the addition of collection costs
8 A plan showing the distribution of the signage, and the location of the vehicle
9 Details of the signs displayed – size, content, font, height of display

You also want to know :

1 Is it pursuing you as the driver or the keeper ?
2 Is it relying on Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
3 Does it intend to rely on Elliott v Loake ?
4 Is the claim for a contractual charge, a breach of a contract or trespass ?
5 Does it agree that a driver without a permit is a trespasser

Tell it that this request is necessary because it failed to send a Letter Before Claim in accordance with the Pre-action Protocol for Debt Claims

If it ignores the request you repeatedly refer to it in your defence

The Claimant did not send a Letter Before Claim
The Defendant has asked the Claimant to explain....but the Claimant has ignored the request

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gac
post Fri, 17 May 2019 - 19:50
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Fri, 17 May 2019 - 20:02) *
Unless you can definitely show you were not the driver, an invalid NtK is useless as the sole point in your defence

VCS only has to persuade the judge that you were more likely than not the driver and you lose

Damn. That's not great news then, I'm struggling to think of any way that any Registered Keeper would prove beyond reasonable doubt they weren't driving a car they are responsible for.

I've acknowledged it and will have to contact VCS - is email sufficient for this? My usual way is to email a company and CC myself, on the basis that when I receive my copy the headers would show the date that I sent it and the address I sent it to. Would that work here or should I do it in writing?

I'm almost wondering whether it's worth it - this is a brand new contract so I'm sure all the relevant paperwork is easily accessible to all the parties involved, and I'm sure it'll all be up to current requirements. I know I should contest it, but can I be bothered? sad.gif
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Redivi
post Fri, 17 May 2019 - 20:39
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You don't have to prove beyond reasonable doubt

You only have to show it was equally likely that it was somebody else
It's VCS that has to provide the extra 1% to push it over the line

I don't see anything wrong with email and the blind copy to yourself

Don't ever assume that a parking company's documents are in order
VCS is particularly prone to serious mistakes such as sharing information with a sister company or even issuing parking notices for locations where it doesn't have the contract

The purpose of the request isn't usually to obtain the information
it's to show the Court that VCS has acted unreasonably when it doesn't send it to you

I heard a barrister outside a courtroom yesterday complaining
He had to cross-examine a witness but couldn't ask an obvious question because he didn't know the answer
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gac
post Fri, 17 May 2019 - 22:03
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Well it costs nothing to send an email so I'll be doing that shortly. Am I free to use those two lists of requirements and questions as-is, or would you prefer them to be re-worded so they don't point directly back to you? I plan to just email them to make it clear that I am responding as the keeper, that I haven't received a letter before claim, and that I need all of those points addressing to allow me to build a full defence.

Many thanks for your advice so far
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gac
post Wed, 29 May 2019 - 10:12
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I asked for all that information (using the email address that's publicly displayed on their website) - and have had no response for several days, not even an automated "we got your message" response.

If the point is to prove that they're uncooperative rather than actually get those details, is it worth emailing them a second time? Or should I just let it lie and refer to the fact that I tried to get in touch with them when I fill out the defence?
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ostell
post Wed, 29 May 2019 - 11:06
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email again and this time put yourself on Bcc so that a copy of the message comes back to you, showing that the message did indeed get out onto the internet successfully.
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gac
post Wed, 29 May 2019 - 11:21
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Already done that on the first one (BCCing myself at another provider so I can show that the email 100% left the sending provider), so I can show I've reached out once and given VCS the opportunity to reply.

I just don't know whether it's worth repeating this exercise until they give me the information to use in a defence, or whether to leave it at one attempt then use the fact that they haven't responded in the defence?
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