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using mobile phone when stationary
SPARKY26
post Sun, 29 Jul 2018 - 19:53
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Hi all is it still a Offence to use your hand held device stationary at a set of lights or in traffic jam if your cars engine cuts off when stopped.
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post Sun, 29 Jul 2018 - 19:53
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southpaw82
post Sun, 29 Jul 2018 - 19:54
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Probably.


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Steve_999
post Sun, 29 Jul 2018 - 20:08
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If you mean that the engine has stopped due to "stop-start" technology then not relevant as still driving.

If it was because the engine had cut out due to a fault and the vehicle could not be driven - couldn't be driving.
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SPARKY26
post Sun, 29 Jul 2018 - 20:21
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QUOTE (Steve_999 @ Sun, 29 Jul 2018 - 21:08) *
If you mean that the engine has stopped due to "stop-start" technology then not relevant as still driving.

If it was because the engine had cut out due to a fault and the vehicle could not be driven - couldn't be driving.

Hi thanks for the speedy reply yes I did mean due to the stop start technology. I was approached by a cyclist he said he saw me using my phone and said he was recording and said he would be passing this recording to the police. I called him a few choice words and he cycled off banging my front wing as he went. Whether the police do anything i will have to wait and see We were in a line of stationary traffic with hand brake on and engine off. (due to stop start) surely this cant be right. "can it"

This post has been edited by SPARKY26: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 - 20:22
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southpaw82
post Sun, 29 Jul 2018 - 20:48
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QUOTE (SPARKY26 @ Sun, 29 Jul 2018 - 21:21) *
QUOTE (Steve_999 @ Sun, 29 Jul 2018 - 21:08) *
If you mean that the engine has stopped due to "stop-start" technology then not relevant as still driving.

If it was because the engine had cut out due to a fault and the vehicle could not be driven - couldn't be driving.

Hi thanks for the speedy reply yes I did mean due to the stop start technology. I was approached by a cyclist he said he saw me using my phone and said he was recording and said he would be passing this recording to the police. I called him a few choice words and he cycled off banging my front wing as he went. Whether the police do anything i will have to wait and see We were in a line of stationary traffic with hand brake on and engine off. (due to stop start) surely this cant be right. "can it"

It does sound like you were driving, yes. The cyclist is still a twat though.


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notmeatloaf
post Sun, 29 Jul 2018 - 20:59
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The law is notoriously poorly worded but basically says you cannot use a phone when driving. This is generally interpreted as when you are on a road and in charge of a vehicle. Having your engine off is likely irrelevant unless tested in court - it doesn't seem to put you in a materially different position to having the engine idling.

As to whether footage from a cyclist is enough to get a conviction, if it clearly shows you using the phone there is no reason why not - indeed many forces now actively solicit such footage.

As a cyclist and driver myself I'm not really a fan of all this dob in your mates bullshit, but around here there are a lot of (mostly female) drivers who seem to make a habit of pulling out in front of me with a phone clamped to their ear or in their lap. Fairly obviously you cannot properly observe to your right and hold a phone to your ear and change gear and steer. I can see why people get cheesed off.

This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 - 21:00
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SPARKY26
post Sun, 29 Jul 2018 - 22:08
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So whats the difference to me driving down the road my mobile phone rings so i pull over to the side of the road and answer the phone iam still in charge of the vehicle.
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cp8759
post Sun, 29 Jul 2018 - 23:41
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QUOTE (SPARKY26 @ Sun, 29 Jul 2018 - 23:08) *
So whats the difference to me driving down the road my mobile phone rings so i pull over to the side of the road and answer the phone iam still in charge of the vehicle.

The easy way to work this out, IMO, is to ask yourself if you need a driving licence to do what you are doing. Is it illegal to be say in a driver's seat without a driving licence, if they keys are not in the ignition? Clearly not, many children will have sat in the driving seat of their parents car any played "driving games" while the keys remained in the pocket of a nearby parent.

On the other hand, is it illegal to be in the driver's seat without a licence when the vehicle is stationery and the engine has cut out due to stop-start technology? Almost certainly, as you are in control of the movement and direction of the vehicle.

So in simple terms, if you need a driving licence to do what you are doing, you are probably "driving" and can't use a hand-held mobile phone. If you could do what you are doing without a licence, you are almost certainly not "driving" so you can use a mobile as much as you like.


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The Slithy Tove
post Mon, 30 Jul 2018 - 07:31
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QUOTE (SPARKY26 @ Sun, 29 Jul 2018 - 23:08) *
So whats the difference to me driving down the road my mobile phone rings so i pull over to the side of the road and answer the phone iam still in charge of the vehicle.

I think it's commonly accepted, and what "they" say you should do, that if you pull over, set the handbrake and turn off the engine (properly, with the key), then you are no longer driving, and can use the phone. Just stopped with the engine running (forget the start/stop distraction), and your foot on the brake would probably count as still driving.
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nigelbb
post Mon, 30 Jul 2018 - 09:57
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According to the Highway Code it's illegal to hold a sat nav while driving https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones-when-driving-the-law


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Redivi
post Mon, 30 Jul 2018 - 11:05
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The briefing notes to Parliament before the legislation was introduced specifically stated that stationary in traffic was driving unless it had been stopped for a very long time with no sign that it was going anywhere
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DancingDad
post Mon, 30 Jul 2018 - 11:42
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Mon, 30 Jul 2018 - 12:05) *
The briefing notes to Parliament before the legislation was introduced specifically stated that stationary in traffic was driving unless it had been stopped for a very long time with no sign that it was going anywhere

That's what I've always worked on.
If I am driving, stopped at the lights or similar is still driving.
If I have parked up, I am not driving but will turn engine off to make it clear that I am not driving.

Must admit to me it is academic and TBH should be for anyone.
Bluetooth connections are available for virtually any car or earpieces if car does not support Bluetooth in an acceptable way.
Many more modern cars it is built in.
Whether safer or not is another discussion but hands free is legal and not expensive.
If it is texts or Twitface (or any other social media site), it can wait.
If it can't, pull over and park before grabbing the phone.
And have a think on addictions.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 - 11:45
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The Rookie
post Mon, 30 Jul 2018 - 12:33
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As a cyclist I pass a lot of drivers using the phone (handheld) when waiting in queues. Is usually just call out to out the phone down, I don’t bother with keeping the video or reporting, too many!

As noted, the engine oss on start stop is an irrelevance as just lifting your foot off the brake (auto) will restart it, so you are clearly still ‘driving’ the car, even on a manual where it’s you have to dip the clutch I doubt you’d convince a court you went driving at the time.



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cp8759
post Mon, 30 Jul 2018 - 13:40
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QUOTE (nigelbb @ Mon, 30 Jul 2018 - 10:57) *
According to the Highway Code it's illegal to hold a sat nav while driving https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones-when-driving-the-law

That page is not the Highway Code. The pages on gov.uk are written by people who are not legally trained and are often wrong.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 - 15:45


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Korting
post Mon, 30 Jul 2018 - 15:44
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Nobody has taken into account electric cars with keyless 'ignition' or shall we say switch on.
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cp8759
post Mon, 30 Jul 2018 - 15:46
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QUOTE (Korting @ Mon, 30 Jul 2018 - 16:44) *
Nobody has taken into account electric cars with keyless 'ignition' or shall we say switch on.

I have, and the conclusion I reached is that the safe bet is to disable any such feature.


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The Rookie
post Mon, 30 Jul 2018 - 16:44
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The point he’s trying to make I think is that in an EV the motor is it running when the car is stationary (it can’t) but one squeeze of the pedal and your are off.


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cp8759
post Mon, 30 Jul 2018 - 18:10
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 30 Jul 2018 - 17:44) *
The point he’s trying to make I think is that in an EV the motor is it running when the car is stationary (it can’t) but one squeeze of the pedal and your are off.

Yes you'd still be driving in those circumstances if you're in stationary / queuing traffic or pulled over, I would have though you'd need to turn the car off (so that the pedal won't move the car) to be "not driving".


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notmeatloaf
post Mon, 30 Jul 2018 - 20:01
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Driving is an action taken by the driver, not the car. I would think it clear that if the vehicle is capable of being driven it matters what the driver, not the vehicle, is doing at any point in time.

Until there is clarification the safest thing is to ask yourself "am I driving?" and if the answer is yes or unsure not hold your phone in your hand. You may, possibly, win a case along the line AF had detailed but seeing as it would very likely require being prosecuted, losing at magistrates court with no certainty even with a judge, it seems a high price to pay for the sake of a phone call or checking WhatsApp.

Just my two cents - Bluetooth systems are much cheaper than a fixed penalty if you want to take calls. I now have a helmet cam which costs less than a takeaway and is such high definition it will show not only the phone in your hand, but what you have on the screen. Whilst I have no intention of running to plod every time someone commits a minor traffic offence, as Simon says you could get dozens filtering along the outside of a queue of traffic in two minutes.

This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 - 20:06
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jdh
post Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 14:13
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 30 Jul 2018 - 16:46) *
QUOTE (Korting @ Mon, 30 Jul 2018 - 16:44) *
Nobody has taken into account electric cars with keyless 'ignition' or shall we say switch on.

I have, and the conclusion I reached is that the safe bet is to disable any such feature.

To flip that round somewhat some of the EVs have app control etc for various functions, you could be sat in the car on a public road while it's charging and have the cabin heaters etc going but the car not in a state where it could actually be made to go by that person. Are they in control? driving? does that change if they're in passenger seat?
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