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Havering - 50r offences, PCN sent to wrong address
Amp_333
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 09:46
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Good Morning all,

Just for context, I have been parking in Upminster (Havering Council) daily and occasionally turned right at the end of Howard Road, despite this being prohibited (I was obviously unaware).

I have received 3 PCN's so far for May (1st being the earliest). They were sent to my previous address (V5c has not been updated but has been sent away, there is however no evidence of this) and have only become apparent when they were delivered to my house at the weekend by the current house owner. I am surprised there are not more, but I am sure more will be coming for June. I did not contest these first three fines and paid £130, £65 and £65 respectively as I am at fault and should have noticed the signs, hopefully they all go through without follow up fines etc. I will call them shortly to see if they can tell me on the phone the amount and details of outstanding offences.

I committed the offences as I was genuinely unaware of the restriction. I occasionally parked in a disabled space (with a blue badge) which is adjacent to the road painting stating left only (therefore I could not see it), and a short distance from the end of the street.

I have taken a generic screenshot from Google maps to show the street in question, and ironically the car parked on the double yellows in front does demonstrate how some others park there which can obscure one of the signs somewhat (in one instance it was a police van parked there all day). Mostly I am returning to my vehicle around 21:30-22:00.

Do I have any grounds to appeal the amount of fines I will receive? Had I known after the first PCN offence (1st May) that I was not allowed to turn right, I would obviously have stopped doing so but I have only just being informed of this. I know I should have noticed the signs, letter or not, but potentially this could run into the thousands in fines.


Thank you

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This post has been edited by Amp_333: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 09:47
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post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 09:46
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Neil B
post Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 09:31
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QUOTE (Amp_333 @ Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 01:00) *
PCN 1 is my main issue now

Imo, first task is to find out if you have actually paid.

And check online for the amount currently due.

QUOTE (Amp_333 @ Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 17:02) *
one they have said that "is at £195.00 ".

Have you got that in writing? It's very significant; charge could not increase until today.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Amp_333
post Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 11:05
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 10:19) *
Then look online for details. You need to know if PCNs on their way.


They are, I just checked the photographs (some browsers will not load the site) and they are dated 4th June, and then 1st June for the second. For a minute I thought I may have got away with just these 5 but as they are not issued chronologically that has been dashed.


QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 10:31) *
QUOTE (Amp_333 @ Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 01:00) *
PCN 1 is my main issue now

Imo, first task is to find out if you have actually paid.

And check online for the amount currently due.

QUOTE (Amp_333 @ Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 17:02) *
one they have said that "is at £195.00 ".

Have you got that in writing? It's very significant; charge could not increase until today.


I have an email from the council representative on the 17th June which is the quote I pasted in, but no letter yet. There is no way to check on their site for the payment status, i.e. the £195 is showing as I owe £65 and there is only a "pay now" icon which does not work. I have responded to the council to ask my status on the £195 one, nothing showing on online banking for any payment.


Regarding the witness statement (as I will explore this avenue hopefully), looking at a generic TE9 form online there is no comment section wherein I can specify I did not receive the PCN until the 16th so I cannot in honesty tick the box stating that I did not receive the PCN (moreover as the council will confirm that I acted on the 16th June). Is it acceptable to add a comment below the box before signing / attach a cover letter? I definitely regret paying the £130 as I have certainly made more work for myself now

Thanks again, and apologies for the over zealous redacting, I did not know which information should be covered or not so went quite broad.

*Edit*

Trying the online "Challenge a PCN" online brings up:

PCN 1 - It would appear you have already been sent a Charge Certificate. It is now too late to make a Formal Representation.
PCN 2- Outstanding £0.00
PCN 3 - It would appear you have already been sent a Charge Certificate. It is now too late to make a Formal Representation.

The Date of notice for PCN 2 was 10th June and PCN 3 was after, at 13th June so something seems off there. All payments were made within a few minutes of one another and I kept note of the receipt numbers

This post has been edited by Amp_333: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 11:14
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Neil B
post Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 11:40
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QUOTE (Amp_333 @ Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 12:05) *
Is it acceptable to add a comment below the box before signing / attach a cover letter?

No.

Can't think of a way out as you've paid. You've summed up your position correctly.

---
Just a faint possibility of a chance that may arise later - so I'll explain later.

----
Post the PCNs as soon as you get them and we will still need to see that Charge Certificate when it comes.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Amp_333
post Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 11:50
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 12:40) *
QUOTE (Amp_333 @ Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 12:05) *
Is it acceptable to add a comment below the box before signing / attach a cover letter?

No.

Can't think of a way out as you've paid. You've summed up your position correctly.




I have not paid in full, only the £130, so would the case still be seen as open or is part payment treated the same as full payment in the sense of representation? I will have to take action regardless for PCN 1 once I receive further information but just I am just trying to get prepared ahead of time. I will upload a copy as soon as the charge certificate arrives.
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Neil B
post Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 11:51
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QUOTE (Amp_333 @ Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 12:05) *
looking at a generic TE9 form

Why?

This post has been edited by Neil B: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 15:24


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 12:03
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This thread explains why the PCNs are invalid and why, although your payment was late, it
seems they've issued a charge cert too soon; exactly as the PCN threatens.

This is why I said so 'significant'. You've just proved our point and helped many cases!

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...vering&st=0

Post #28 has reps wording in blue.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Amp_333
post Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 06:43
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 12:40) *
QUOTE (Amp_333 @ Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 12:05) *
Is it acceptable to add a comment below the box before signing / attach a cover letter?

No.

Can't think of a way out as you've paid. You've summed up your position correctly.

----
Post the PCNs as soon as you get them and we will still need to see that Charge Certificate when it comes.


I now have the charge certificate, links should be below. For reference, I emailed the TEC yesterday and received a reply stating "Yes, you may attach a cover letter or any documents/evidence you have that will help with your appeal" with regards to the TE9 Witness statement form.

Regarding the charge certificate, I do not really understand how they have violated the 28 day rule, can you please highlight where I am wrong? If the date of notice was 17th May, the 28th day would be 14th June. The charge certificate was issued on the 17th June (also note it is served on the 19th), i.e. after this date?

upload

upload

I have also had confirmation that PCN 2 and 3 have been closed. No word on PCN 1 payment and the certificate shows it is £0 but I would expect this given the date it was printed.

Thank you your help, and patience!

*Edit* I just received an email from the council confirming PCN 1 has received a payment of £130, £65 still owed. This is non refundable "whilst there is still an outstanding balance" which was expected but I had to ask as I am hoping the TEC return it to the original £65 fee and therefore allow me to ask for a refund.



This post has been edited by Amp_333: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 13:00
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Neil B
post Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 13:36
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QUOTE (Amp_333 @ Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 07:43) *
For reference, I emailed the TEC yesterday and received a reply stating "Yes, you may attach a cover letter or any documents/evidence you have that will help with your appeal" with regards to the TE9 Witness statement form.


Is BS and not even the correct form.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 15:22


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 14:12
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QUOTE (Amp_333 @ Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 07:43) *
Regarding the charge certificate, I do not really understand how they have violated the 28 day rule, can you please highlight where I am wrong? If the date of notice was 17th May, the 28th day would be 14th June. The charge certificate was issued on the 17th June (also note it is served on the 19th), i.e. after this date?

Your problem there is very simple; you're believing what the PCN says. The very essence of the issue is that
the PCN is wrong; misleading you about the true deadlines.

We don't need to explain further just yet as you don't have the PCNs.



This post has been edited by Neil B: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 15:20


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 15:20
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IMPORTANT.

Just realised I've made a boo boo, falling for your references to TE9 when it isn't even the form you need!

It's PE3 Statutory Declaration.
Which limits our options now.

----
Meanwhile I'm off to edit all my posts so as not to mislead others.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 15:34
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 10:20) *
I should wake up before I post! biggrin.gif

Me too.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Amp_333
post Thu, 20 Jun 2019 - 06:30
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Apologies for the confusion, it is as hcanderson said, a case of a little knowledge being a bad thing.

PCN 4 and 5 are at the old property, I will try to pick them up tonight and post them here tomorrow.

I am now at a crossroads as to whether I just pay the outstanding £65 for PCN. From the PE3:

I am going to call my local magistrates court later regarding their process for a witness signature, have you any experience with this or are all courts different?

I am trying to weigh up the cost of the grief vs the fine itself. If my PE2/PE3 were to be accepted by the TEC, would the likely outcome be that no further action is taken (i.e. I lose the £130), or that the original PCN is reinstated and therefore I am entitled to a £65 refund from my £130 payment?

If my application is rejected, will I then be informed and given 21 days to pay the £203? Struggling to find online any information regarding the financial aspect of rejection of the PE3. If the only risk is a further £8 then I will opt for this but I do not want a CCJ/bailiff type situation going on!

Thank you, and apologies again for the confusion.

This post has been edited by Amp_333: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 - 19:52
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Incandescent
post Thu, 20 Jun 2019 - 07:51
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Not the magistrates court, it is the local County Court. Magistrates courts are criminal courts.
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Neil B
post Thu, 20 Jun 2019 - 10:22
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QUOTE (Amp_333 @ Thu, 20 Jun 2019 - 07:30) *
PE2

Now you've done it again !

QUOTE (Amp_333 @ Thu, 20 Jun 2019 - 07:30) *
I am trying to weigh up the cost of the grief vs the fine itself. If my PE3 were to be accepted by the TEC, would the likely outcome be that no further action is taken (i.e. I lose the £130), or that the original PCN is reinstated and therefore I am entitled to a £65 refund from my £130 payment?

Depends what you are proposing to tick on the form.

QUOTE (Amp_333 @ Thu, 20 Jun 2019 - 07:30) *
Struggling to find online any information regarding the financial aspect of rejection of the PE3.

There is no info because it can't happen.

QUOTE (Amp_333 @ Thu, 20 Jun 2019 - 07:30) *
£203?

How that amount?

----
There's no rush re a PE3 you can't even use yet but the clock is ticking on considering
alternative courses of action.

What about, for instance, making representations against the PCN now?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Thu, 20 Jun 2019 - 11:21
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QUOTE (Amp_333 @ Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 07:43) *
*Edit* I just received an email from the council confirming PCN 1 has received a payment of £130, £65 still owed.

What amount is currently showing as due online?
Get a screenshot.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Thu, 20 Jun 2019 - 13:01


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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cp8759
post Thu, 20 Jun 2019 - 20:05
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Thu, 20 Jun 2019 - 08:51) *
Not the magistrates court, it is the local County Court. Magistrates courts are criminal courts.

A statutory declaration can be witnessed before the magistrates' court, whether to go to the county court or the magistrates' court is purely down to what's more convenient in times of distance / travel time / waiting time.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Incandescent
post Thu, 20 Jun 2019 - 22:32
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 20 Jun 2019 - 21:05) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Thu, 20 Jun 2019 - 08:51) *
Not the magistrates court, it is the local County Court. Magistrates courts are criminal courts.

A statutory declaration can be witnessed before the magistrates' court, whether to go to the county court or the magistrates' court is purely down to what's more convenient in times of distance / travel time / waiting time.

Thanks for this information; very useful.
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Neil B
post Thu, 20 Jun 2019 - 23:16
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 20 Jun 2019 - 21:05) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Thu, 20 Jun 2019 - 08:51) *
Not the magistrates court, it is the local County Court. Magistrates courts are criminal courts.

A statutory declaration can be witnessed before the magistrates' court, whether to go to the county court or the magistrates' court is purely down to what's more convenient in times of distance / travel time / waiting time.

Is Mags a free counter service, as at County? Is there a charge?

Do all Mags courts provide this service?

This post has been edited by Neil B: Thu, 20 Jun 2019 - 23:16


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 01:13
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I can't recall us losing one Havering MT case since Victoria was on the throne.

This is just daft and frustrating.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 01:37


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
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cp8759
post Sat, 22 Jun 2019 - 13:35
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 00:16) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 20 Jun 2019 - 21:05) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Thu, 20 Jun 2019 - 08:51) *
Not the magistrates court, it is the local County Court. Magistrates courts are criminal courts.

A statutory declaration can be witnessed before the magistrates' court, whether to go to the county court or the magistrates' court is purely down to what's more convenient in times of distance / travel time / waiting time.

Is Mags a free counter service, as at County? Is there a charge?

Do all Mags courts provide this service?

Statutory declarations at a magistrates' court are free and all mags courts provide this service. This is nothing new, the relevant signature line on form PE3 says:

Commissioner for Oaths/Officer of the Court appointed by the Judge to take affidavits/Justice of the Peace (Please delete as appropriate)

The PE3 guidance notes confirm:

Once the form has been completed it must be sworn i.e. signed before a Commissioner for Oaths (e.g. a Solicitor), or an Officer of a County Court appointed by the Judge to take affidavits, or a Justice of the Peace (Magistrates Court).

I'm 15 minutes from a magistrates' court but over 40 from the nearest county court, so if I even needed to I imagine I'd go to the magistrates.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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