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BUS LANE penalty notice from (surprise) Cardiff council after 3 years!
TouringMuso01
post Mon, 1 Oct 2018 - 21:02
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I just received today a charge notice apparently from Cardiff Council threatening all sorts of action from full penalty payments of hundreds of pounds to seizing assets etc.

It states that I did not respond to an initial penalty notice - a notice that I never received and have no knowledge of. More interestingly the apparent contravention is dated as 2016 nearly 3 years ago!

At first I thought this was a scam - but seems like a legit letter.

The letter I received had a last chance offer of over £125 on it however this 14 day period has now expired as the letter was dated start of September and I received it yesterday.

I have no knowledge of the incident it refers to and I haven't been to Cardiff for at least 3 years


What should I do with this and how should I proceed in replying? The threatening nature of this is concerning me and as I never received anything relating to this previously I don't know how best to deal with this. Im now worried how they will react to this apparent 'non compliance'

Can this be legit or applicable nearly 3 years after the fact....??
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post Mon, 1 Oct 2018 - 21:02
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TouringMuso01
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 18:41
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 17:56) *
See if they can email you a copy of the new PCN.



Not sure thats going to cut it now as its progressing tomorrow!
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cp8759
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 18:48
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QUOTE (TouringMuso01 @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 18:41) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 17:56) *
See if they can email you a copy of the new PCN.



Not sure thats going to cut it now as its progressing tomorrow!

So submit representations asap, you have plenty of grounds, the absurd delay in pursing enforcement (3 years as you say), sending the new PCN to the wrong address etc...

But separately, still ask for an email copy of the new PCN.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 18:49


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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TouringMuso01
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 19:19
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yes I will do tonight.

I just don't think they'll care and they will probably blame it on the TEC and try to wash their hands of it. I don't want to go through this again from scratch is all.

It does seem they are hell bent on delivering this fine no matter what. I mean at this point I'd pay the £35 ok but now its rolled over AGAIN to £70 because they sent it to an address I told them I wouldn't be at - I have to challenge it.

Ive listed it as 'procedural impropriety by the Enforcement Authority' and have attached the 2 documents (Witness Statement + 1) to the form as proof.
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John U.K.
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 19:21
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QUOTE
Ive listed it as 'procedural impropriety by the Enforcement Authority' and have attached the 2 documents (Witness Statement + 1) to the form as proof.


Copies
of the documents, I hope?
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Neil B
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 19:50
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Sounds like TEC sent the revoking Order astray as well.

Ask them.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 20:34
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you keep saying the only address from which you have mail forwarding, is this the same as the address on the v5c and if not what did you do to inform the council of the new address, and what proof did you submit that this address is valid?


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TouringMuso01
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 20:36
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QUOTE (John U.K. @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 19:21) *
QUOTE
Ive listed it as 'procedural impropriety by the Enforcement Authority' and have attached the 2 documents (Witness Statement + 1) to the form as proof.


Copies
of the documents, I hope?



Copies?? They are PDFs......
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TouringMuso01
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 20:47
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 20:34) *
you keep saying the only address from which you have mail forwarding, is this the same as the address on the v5c and if not what did you do to inform the council of the new address, and what proof did you submit that this address is valid?



As I said, I have a family address that I can get mail forwarded to me from at certain times. This is NOT my home address which is where "my life" is officially registered. So no it is not the home address thats on the log book.

Having explained this to the TEC in December, I detailed these points on the Witness Statement and also included a second attachment asking for all posted documents to be sent to the family address for a specific reason. The council should have been informed if they had actually read the documents that should have been sent to them by the TEC.
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Neil B
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 20:57
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 20:34) *
you keep saying the only address from which you have mail forwarding, is this the same as the address on the v5c and if not what did you do to inform the council of the new address, and what proof did you submit that this address is valid?

I think we need to see said attachment with TE9.

QUOTE (TouringMuso01 @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 20:47) *
I detailed these points on the Witness Statement

You were lucky not to have had that refused for even processing! Strictly tick box, sign.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 20:58
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Have you now made representations? If so what


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TouringMuso01
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 22:08
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 20:57) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 20:34) *
you keep saying the only address from which you have mail forwarding, is this the same as the address on the v5c and if not what did you do to inform the council of the new address, and what proof did you submit that this address is valid?

I think we need to see said attachment with TE9.


Ok...


QUOTE (TouringMuso01 @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 20:47) *
I detailed these points on the Witness Statement

You were lucky not to have had that refused for even processing! Strictly tick box, sign.



Nope, home address is typed in and underneath was clearly stated 'not address for receiving post - please see attached'

Both formats above were what was recommended by the TEC to proceed. We had a lengthy and detailed discussion after my half hour on hold!



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 20:58) *
Have you now made representations? If so what


Yes, completed appeal and waiting to hear back.

Logged 'Procedural Impropriety by Enforcement Authority' and explained all the above - highlighting the correct address to send stuff to!


CURRENT POSTAL ADDRESS IS: ------
THIS HAS BEEN THE CASE SINCE MID NOVEMBER AND WILL BE THE CASE UNTIL WELL INTO FEBRUARY.

-------DO NOT POST TO MY REGISTERED HOME ADDRESS!!!-------

PCN not received as current postal address WAS NOT TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT and information clearly provided to you was blatantly ignored. This address was provided to you twice and stated clearly by procedure on the previous TE9 witness statement and the attached supplementary document that was rightfully submitted and clearly explained the situation. This was included on the advice of the TEC and processed back to you. If the TEC have failed to provide you with the correct official documents and information that was rightfully contained therein, that is something you need to take up with them.

Witness statement was sent by email and confirmed on 9th December 2018. The 2 documents sent are attached below as proof.


Attached File(s)
Attached File  TE9_Supp.pdf ( 28.44K ) Number of downloads: 26
 
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cp8759
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 22:11
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Did you get some sort of acknowledgment for your representations?

This post has been edited by cp8759: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 22:11


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No, I am not a lawyer.
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Neil B
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 22:24
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But your attachment doesn't say, specifically to use the alternative address, it says IF an alternative is required ----
So what was on the TE9?
In a processing centre dealing with ns of thousands of these daily, input operatives will take the first they see.
And why TEC customer assistants thought anyone would look beyond the TE9form in an automated process is a mystery
to me.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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TouringMuso01
post Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 02:27
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 22:24) *
But your attachment doesn't say, specifically to use the alternative address, it says IF an alternative is required ----
So what was on the TE9?
In a processing centre dealing with ns of thousands of these daily, input operatives will take the first they see.
And why TEC customer assistants thought anyone would look beyond the TE9form in an automated process is a mystery
to me.



Ok, well as I said that's what the 'help' at the TEC told me to do. Short of delivering them a large multicoloured banner telling them the fairly obvious, I'm not sure what exactly I'm supposed to do!

The appeal's been sent so will have to se what the reply is to that.

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 22:11) *
Did you get some sort of acknowledgment for your representations?



I got the 'Appeal Successfully Submitted' screen!



...your appeal is now being considered etc.....
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Neil B
post Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 06:56
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QUOTE (TouringMuso01 @ Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 02:27) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 22:24) *
But your attachment doesn't say, specifically to use the alternative address, it says IF an alternative is required ----
So what was on the TE9?
In a processing centre dealing with ns of thousands of these daily, input operatives will take the first they see.
And why TEC customer assistants thought anyone would look beyond the TE9form in an automated process is a mystery
to me.



Ok, well as I said that's what the 'help' at the TEC told me to do. Short of delivering them a large multicoloured banner telling them the fairly obvious, I'm not sure what exactly I'm supposed to do!.

Quite straightforward; your correct current contact address goes on the TE9.

QUOTE (TouringMuso01 @ Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 02:27) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 22:11) *
Did you get some sort of acknowledgment for your representations?



I got the 'Appeal Successfully Submitted' screen!
...your appeal is now being considered etc.....

Screenshot?
Cos, legally, that deadline, 21st, they gave you was a day late.
Proof of acceptance, albeit an automated response, helps any later disputes.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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TouringMuso01
post Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 17:53
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[/quote]
Screenshot?
Cos, legally, that deadline, 21st, they gave you was a day late.
Proof of acceptance, albeit an automated response, helps any later disputes.
[/quote]




QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 06:56) *
QUOTE (TouringMuso01 @ Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 02:27) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 22:24) *
But your attachment doesn't say, specifically to use the alternative address, it says IF an alternative is required ----
So what was on the TE9?
In a processing centre dealing with ns of thousands of these daily, input operatives will take the first they see.
And why TEC customer assistants thought anyone would look beyond the TE9form in an automated process is a mystery
to me.



Ok, well as I said that's what the 'help' at the TEC told me to do. Short of delivering them a large multicoloured banner telling them the fairly obvious, I'm not sure what exactly I'm supposed to do!.

Quite straightforward; your correct current contact address goes on the TE9.




But it doesn't say 'Current Contact Address' or 'Current Postal Address' it just says 'address' which is assumed to mean 'home address/official address/address in relation to the PCN in question/address where vehicle in question is registered etc etc'

If I just start using 'another' address, that's not going to match their records and presumably open up an even larger can of worms. Hence, why i included the very clear wording pointing to the supplementary - once again, as i said, as instructed by the TEC.
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TouringMuso01
post Thu, 31 Jan 2019 - 18:35
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In the interests of 'closure' (hopefully!!)
Received this reply today from council BY EMAIL......



Date of Contravention: 15 April 2016 Time of Contravention: 17:31
Location: Custom House Street

I refer to your representations received on 21 January 2019 in respect of the above Penalty Charge Notice.

Under the Traffic Management Act 2004 your vehicle was issued a Penalty Charge Notice for being in a bus lane.

Northampton County Court has advised that you have submitted a Witness Statement regarding the above parking penalty. The Council has been instructed to revoke the Order for Recovery of the penalty charge and to cancel the Charge Certificate, and both these actions have been carried out. In effect, the penalty charge has reverted to its original value

In your ground for appeal to Northampton County Court, you stated that you did not receive the Penalty Charge Notice sent to you and whilst the Order for Recovery has been revoked, the revoking order did not cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and a new Penalty Charge Notice was sent to you on 20 December 2018. However, it is noted that the Penalty Charge Notice was not sent to the address you requested and we would apologise for this error.
Other than for the purpose of loading and unloading, provided that a loading ban is not in force, or to allow passengers to board or alight, a vehicle in the City of Cardiff is not permitted to travel within a marked bus lane without being a public service vehicle, hackney carriage or private hire vehicle, as defined by legislation. CCTV footage clearly shows the above vehicle to be using a bus lane and I am therefore satisfied that the Notice was served correctly.

The CCTV footage, taken at the time the contravention took place, clearly shows your vehicle travelling within the westbound bus lane of Custom House Street. There are regulatory signs advising motorists of the approaching bus lane restrictions, at the entrance to the bus lane at this location and accompanied by legends on the carriage way in both English and Welsh. Additionally, the bus lane is a different colour (green) from the rest of carriageway.

Bus lanes are enforced to allow people to easily commute via public transport, encourage the free flow of traffic around a busy city and aid emergency services responding to a 999 call. When using a public highway, it is the responsibility of the motorist to drive safely, legally and in accordance with the restrictions in force.

I note from your representations that you have not provided any explanation or mitigation for your vehicle being in a bus lane and in view of this, the decision has been made not to cancel the Penalty Charge Notice. However, your comments have been considered and the discounted amount of £35.00 will be reoffered for 21 days from the date of this letter.

You now have two options:

1) Pay the Penalty Charge Notice

The amount of £35.00 will be accepted only if payment is made within 21 days from the date of this letter. Once this period has expired the full Penalty Charge of £70.00 will then be due.

Payment can be made:

Online: www.cardiff.gov.uk
Phone: Automated payment line - 029 2087 2087 (7 days a week). Credit or debit card payments only. 
Cheque or postal order to: Parking Services, PO Box 47, Cardiff, CF11 1QB. 

Cash payments are not accepted. If cash is provided the City of Cardiff Council will accept no liability in the event of its loss. Cheques/Postal Orders should be made payable to “Cardiff Council” and marked on the reverse with the Penalty Charge Notice reference. Allow 2 working days for 1st class and 5 days for 2nd Class. Please be aware that it is your responsibility to ensure payment is made correctly otherwise further costs may be incurred.

OR

2) Appeal to the independent adjudicator

If you disagree with the Council’s decision to reject your representations you may appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal. Details on how to do so has been included with this letter. Please note the full Penalty Charge will apply to cases registered with the tribunal.

It is important that you take action on this Notice. If you do not pay or appeal to the adjudicator within 28 days from the date of service of this notice then the Council may serve a Charge Certificate. The penalty will then increase to £105.00 and any right to appeal to either the Council or the adjudicator will be lost.

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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 31 Jan 2019 - 19:03
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So what will you do, Pay £35 or risk £70 you would have a good chance on the basis of the time


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TouringMuso01
post Thu, 31 Jan 2019 - 21:27
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 31 Jan 2019 - 19:03) *
So what will you do, Pay £35 or risk £70 you would have a good chance on the basis of the time



I was just going to pay the £35 now its been reduced back down and I know about it - seemed the best outcome to me as they seem adamant to keep the PCN in play..

How/why would I risk the £70? What do you mean Id have a good chance on the basis of the time???

Appeal to the adjudicator???

This post has been edited by TouringMuso01: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 - 21:35
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Neil B
post Thu, 31 Jan 2019 - 21:42
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Just musing.

We haven't actually seen the PCN, there having been a bit of a rush. Or did I miss it.

I imagine it was a current version, yet the Order says 'does not cancel the original PCN', which, as I think PMB
mentioned, was likely duff on wording.

Was just a thought.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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