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BUS LANE penalty notice from (surprise) Cardiff council after 3 years!
TouringMuso01
post Mon, 1 Oct 2018 - 21:02
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I just received today a charge notice apparently from Cardiff Council threatening all sorts of action from full penalty payments of hundreds of pounds to seizing assets etc.

It states that I did not respond to an initial penalty notice - a notice that I never received and have no knowledge of. More interestingly the apparent contravention is dated as 2016 nearly 3 years ago!

At first I thought this was a scam - but seems like a legit letter.

The letter I received had a last chance offer of over £125 on it however this 14 day period has now expired as the letter was dated start of September and I received it yesterday.

I have no knowledge of the incident it refers to and I haven't been to Cardiff for at least 3 years


What should I do with this and how should I proceed in replying? The threatening nature of this is concerning me and as I never received anything relating to this previously I don't know how best to deal with this. Im now worried how they will react to this apparent 'non compliance'

Can this be legit or applicable nearly 3 years after the fact....??
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post Mon, 1 Oct 2018 - 21:02
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TouringMuso01
post Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 20:32
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 17:02) *
Ask to see the video as is your right. I still feel that the delay alone could win it, but the signage at Custom house st was pants in 2016 I think they will struggle to prove the case




Would I demand to see the video through the Tribunal? Just working out how to word my statement to them.....
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Mad Mick V
post Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 20:57
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Now who thinks they have a video after such a time? rolleyes.gif

Mick
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 21:39
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QUOTE (TouringMuso01 @ Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 20:32) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 17:02) *
Ask to see the video as is your right. I still feel that the delay alone could win it, but the signage at Custom house st was pants in 2016 I think they will struggle to prove the case




Would I demand to see the video through the Tribunal? Just working out how to word my statement to them.....



no it tells you how on the PCN, And I for one doubt they have it


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TouringMuso01
post Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 21:54
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 21:39) *
no it tells you how on the PCN, And I for one doubt they have it



Ok holding off submitting app until I demand the vid - the only applicable address on the `PCN seems to be for Data Protection office dataprotection@cardiff.gov.uk. All other methods relate to making representations.
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Neil B
post Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 22:20
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QUOTE (TouringMuso01 @ Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 21:54) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 21:39) *
no it tells you how on the PCN, And I for one doubt they have it



Ok holding off submitting app until I demand the vid - the only applicable address on the `PCN seems to be for Data Protection office dataprotection@cardiff.gov.uk. All other methods relate to making representations.

Sorry if I've missed it but, back to basics, have you actually looked online for a vid?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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TouringMuso01
post Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 22:36
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 22:20) *
Sorry if I've missed it but, back to basics, have you actually looked online for a vid?



I did look - couldnt find any easy to reach from Cardiff. I notice other councils have accessible request forms for video evidence....

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 21:39) *
QUOTE (TouringMuso01 @ Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 20:32) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 17:02) *
Ask to see the video as is your right. I still feel that the delay alone could win it, but the signage at Custom house st was pants in 2016 I think they will struggle to prove the case




Would I demand to see the video through the Tribunal? Just working out how to word my statement to them.....



no it tells you how on the PCN, And I for one doubt they have it



Also, for arguments sake, if they don't have it, do the 3 screenshots on the PCN not count for much on their own??
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Neil B
post Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 22:52
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QUOTE (TouringMuso01 @ Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 22:36) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 22:20) *
Sorry if I've missed it but, back to basics, have you actually looked online for a vid?



I did look - couldnt find any easy to reach from Cardiff. I notice other councils have accessible request forms for video evidence....

Not sure what you mean "easy to reach". There's a web address on the PCN ?

(which, incidentally, isn't enough and another appeal point if Welsh Regs are like England)


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 22:53
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QUOTE (TouringMuso01 @ Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 22:36) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 22:20) *
Sorry if I've missed it but, back to basics, have you actually looked online for a vid?



I did look - couldnt find any easy to reach from Cardiff. I notice other councils have accessible request forms for video evidence....

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 21:39) *
QUOTE (TouringMuso01 @ Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 20:32) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 17:02) *
Ask to see the video as is your right. I still feel that the delay alone could win it, but the signage at Custom house st was pants in 2016 I think they will struggle to prove the case




Would I demand to see the video through the Tribunal? Just working out how to word my statement to them.....



no it tells you how on the PCN, And I for one doubt they have it



Also, for arguments sake, if they don't have it, do the 3 screenshots on the PCN not count for much on their own??


Statute requires that you are allowed to see the video, if they do not allow you to that is a procedural impropriety and the adjudicator must cabcel the PCN


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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 23:04
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Fill in the details here and see what is behind this page.

(5) The recipient of a penalty charge notice served under regulation 10(1)(a) of the General Provisions Regulations may, by notice in writing to the enforcement authority, request it—

(a) to make available at one of its offices specified by the recipient, free of charge and at a time during normal office hours so specified, for viewing by the recipient or by a representative, the record of the road traffic contravention produced by the approved device pursuant to which the penalty charge was imposed; or

(b) to provide the recipient, free of charge, with such still images from that record as, in the authority’s opinion, establish the road traffic contravention.




They have not really fulfilled the requirements of the regs, but that is not a winner on its own but there is also a will/may issue as regards a CC that can well be


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hcandersen
post Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 11:23
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What?

They have issued a PCN but you have not received a charge certificate. Pl confirm.

You have received a further letter. This has no legal status, forget it for the moment, but save it.

Action: make representations now. The best that you can muster. State that after receiving the PCN you tried to view the video by various methods ***** and ****, the PCN itself gving no instructions or information in this regard. These failed attempts have led to you missing the 28-day period but given that the authority may consider or disregard representations made after this date and in light of the urgency brought about by the authority's letter dated ****you are making representations to the best of your recollection, given that the contavention occurred more than 3 years ago.

This thread is so long, I cannot trawl through. But as you have a PCN dated Dec. this consigns to the bin all prior matters. If the authority do not have the video then they have NO evidence, so let's not speculate on this!

But OP, stop posting and do something, other than posting previous issues here!
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 11:37
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Please confirm Reps were made 21st of Jan and we are awaiting council response


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hcandersen
post Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 11:46
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...and that's the discrepancy..any reps made in Jan could not give rise to their recent letter for £105!
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Neil B
post Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 12:06
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 11:37) *
Please confirm Reps were made 21st of Jan and we are awaiting council response

No.
Rejection 31st. Discount re-offered until 21/2.


QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 11:46) *
...and that's the discrepancy..any reps made in Jan could not give rise to their recent letter for £105!

Where is this?

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 11:23) *
This thread is so long, I cannot trawl through.

It would be good if you did.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 14:00
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 12:06) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 11:37) *
Please confirm Reps were made 21st of Jan and we are awaiting council response

No.
Rejection 31st. Discount re-offered until 21/2.

Got it I


QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 11:46) *
...and that's the discrepancy..any reps made in Jan could not give rise to their recent letter for £105!

Where is this?

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 11:23) *
This thread is so long, I cannot trawl through.

It would be good if you did.



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hcandersen
post Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 15:00
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Mea culpa.

Let's hope this takes in the essence.


What a dog's breakfast of transposition, embedded docs and PDFs.

OP, I am just trying to bring all relevant documents together in one place.

These are:
The PCN;
Your reps (where are these, you must post them)
Their NOR


Anyway, they've c****d-up procedurally and IMO you would win at adj.

The NOR misinforms you of your rights of appeal.

The regs require a NOR to state that:
1. If you fail to pay within the 28-day period then the authority may issue a charge certificate increasing the penalty. The NOR misstates the 28-day period and places you in jeopardy. The period is defined as being no later than the end of 28 days beginning on the date of service. The NOR states 'within 28 days from the date of service'. This would cause you to believe that you had an extra day to pay when in fact you did not.
2. Even worse, the 28-day period is applied again to the period when you have a statutory right to have an appeal registered. If you waited until the end of their period, this right would be lost and you would be relying on the adj's discretion. Even worse, whereas the NOR is required to state, by virtue of their duty to state in general terms the form and manner in which an appeal must be made, that an appeal may be submitted after the end of this period, the NOR states the complete opposite: another council trying to exercise the power of the adj!

and
3. It fails to advise you regarding the adj's power to award costs.


I cannot comment on whether they've given proper consideration to your reps, I've not seen them!
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 15:49
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Starting at the beginning

First the OP finds is that the council make an illegal demand for the increased penalty. before the issue a CC the then say the issued a CC in May 2016 but go on to serve one in Dec 2018 whilst the earlier one is extant(as far as can be ascertained)

So what is correct PSN issued March(ish ) 2016 then CC May 2016 So 3 years between CC and OfR or PCN 2016 CC 2018 3.5 years between PCN and CC.

Both inherently unfair, there are a number of exemptions in the TRO for being in a bus lane ( not checked but assuming the standard ones). How can it be fair to expect the OP to remember if one applies

Finally get a PCN that can be dealt with. It does not convey the requirement for viewing video, nor can the video be viewed online (to date)

Then the NoR is bobbins as per HCA Though I think the bit about costs will be accepted as compliant


As per HCA this is a very strong case for appeal that should win


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Neil B
post Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 15:59
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 15:49) *
nor can the video be viewed online (to date)

Have we had a firm answer to that? I don't feel so.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 16:03
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 15:59) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 15:49) *
nor can the video be viewed online (to date)

Have we had a firm answer to that? I don't feel so.


not yet from my post of last night, hence the to date


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TouringMuso01
post Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 17:02
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 15:59) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 15:49) *
nor can the video be viewed online (to date)

Have we had a firm answer to that? I don't feel so.



Reply from Cardiff Parking Services this morning -

Thank you for your email.

Please find attached video evidence in relation to QC--------


They attached 3 JPG colour versions of the stills supplied on the PCN! No link to actual video etc - just what has already been seen in black and white (2 of the car and a closeup of numberplate)
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Neil B
post Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 17:07
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I'l just try once more in the hope of a straight answer.
QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 22:52) *
QUOTE (TouringMuso01 @ Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 22:36) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 22:20) *
Sorry if I've missed it but, back to basics, have you actually looked online for a vid?


I did look - couldnt find any easy to reach from Cardiff. I notice other councils have accessible request forms for video evidence....

Not sure what you mean "easy to reach". There's a web address on the PCN ?

Have you looked at the website they directed to, yourself?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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