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Dieselgate (again)
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post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 09:06
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Driving to work I am now besieged by radio adverts to sign up with Slater & Gordon and their action against VW.

They are claiming to be getting 50% of the value of the vehicles (even if you only leased the thing!) as compensation for something.

What for?

Compensation for paying less VED than they should have?
Compensation for unwittingly damaging the environment more than they expected to whilst driving- how will that help? (ooh I took 20 years off someone's life, rather than only 15, £10,000 will help me get over it rolleyes.gif )

What actual financial loss have they suffered? (especially the leasers)


I'm not against fining VW and giving the money to the NHS or something, but if I were presiding over this I'd just throw it out as nonsense.

This post has been edited by facade: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 09:07
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Tancred
post Sat, 22 Sep 2018 - 22:16
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 14:35) *
VAG committed crimes, and the result of those crimes (in a structured, deliberate and prolonged manner) were earlier deaths for a significant number of people, independent research has suggested as high as 10,000, if that’s not a crime against humanity what exactly is, it’s not pathetic it’s bl**dy serious, that’s why it’s cost them over €20B for them criminality. I know they pay your wages but you can’t change that fact.


The problem was it wasn't just Volkswagen, it seems very few manufacturers if any have been 'bending' the rules regarding testing and in real world testing very few cars passed within the limits and several were much, much worse than VW - the Nissan Qashqai was particularly bad and also one of the most popular vehicles in the UK.

The testing regime was clearly at fault and was allowed to continue despite it being known that the real world figures were nowhere near tested figures the cars were producing to pass the regulations.
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The Rookie
post Sun, 23 Sep 2018 - 00:58
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The issue with VAG products is that it was a clear and blatant cheat, the other products were not as robust as they should have been away from the test cycle speeds and engine loads, to a greater or lesser extent, but the VW products just switched the emissions control system down at the self same speeds and loads.

When following a 2.0 TDi you’d see a puff of black smoke on acceleration, you wouldn’t see it from other cars, I always assumed they must be mega clean on all the other operating points to compensate.....no they were just cheating, they overfueled to get it on boost early, now owners (go manuals) report low speed pickup is more sluggish, no black smoke though.....

Haven’t stopped cheating it seems, the ex Audi CEO is still in jail pending trial over the Dieselgate matters as he was found trying to destroy evidence while out on bail.


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seank
post Sun, 23 Sep 2018 - 06:55
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Complete and utter rubbish, with the exception of your final sentence.
You appear to be clueless in the operation of diesel engines. A puff of smoke will not be a result of over-fuelling. Much more likely to be a sooty exhaust system.
More power results from efficient combustion, which is why I go to great pains to atomise the fuel, maximising the surface area of each droplet. Think of peeling potatoes. Those you don't want to peel are the smallest, with the largest relative surface area. Exactly what I want in a droplet of fuel. Introducing more fuel, as you suggest, minimises the available surface area of the droplets, producing less power.
Nobody has "switched the emissions control system down". The issue is mixture concentration with the volume of fuel compared to that of air, reduction in CO2 and increase in NOx.
Kindly, stick to subjects you know about. We won't be hearing much from you then.
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The Rookie
post Sun, 23 Sep 2018 - 08:19
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Yeah, after 29 years working in Powertrain development for various OEM’s and consultancies (including directly for a VAG group company and indirectly for 2 others) I’m sure I know nothing and you know more, your experience is exactly?

Black smoke is the result of an over rich mixture, full stop. Power comes from burning more fuel in more air, efficiency has a tiny impact, to get the more air you need boost, by overfuelling off boost you increase exhaust energy and spool the turbo faster, that’s why the smoke reduction has hit response and low end torque (check the independent dyno tests) Droplet size has close to zero effect on power, it has a lot to do with reducing particulate emissions (you know, the stuff you can actually see as black smoke sometimes......) and by homogenising the burn better you get an improvement in engine out NOx as well.
Black smoke https://www.lubrizoladditives360.com/black-...and-prevention/

Where the power increases in modern diesels has come from is fuel pressure, the limitation on a Diesel is how much fuel you can get in from when you can start combustion to when it’s no point adding more as the piston is so far down the bore you make no power (expansion ratio too low), a 1980-2000 rotary pump was typically working at a max of 700bar, common rail jumped that straight to about 1400bar (so about 41% greater flow out the same injector nozzle) while unitary injectors (such as the VAG ‘pumpe douze’ (PD)) were about 1700bar, modern CR pumps are now at circa 2000bar (which is why VAG dropped the PD system, besides it couldn’t do a sufficient spread of injections, especially for DPF forced regen) and some up to 2200bar (this is passenger car kit, not commercial vehicle which run higher pressures still). I’ve worked with Bosch and Delphi Diesel FIE teams in the past and am still working with our engineers who are still working with both companies though I don’t have direct contact in my current position.

They did turn the emissions control system down, they reduced EGR use which improves fuel economy but increases engine out NOx and they reduced the use of Urea (also increases NOx at the tailpipe by reducing the conversion in the SCR system) so they could get away with a smaller tank with sufficient range. Have you read the details of the Q7 Urea consumption issue they ‘fixed’ with the cheat, it’s all in the public domain.

One of my colleagues attended and was questioned by the parliamentary select committee who investigated the VAG scandal and as part of that looked at other manufacturers as well.

For a company with the origins of Volkswagen, you think they’d be really careful about posioning people with noxious gasses, but even monkeys aren’t exempt.....
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/02...-auto-industry/

And the inimitable John Cadogen’s view https://youtu.be/CkatIgyBqw0

Your turn........

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 - 08:46


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seank
post Sun, 23 Sep 2018 - 09:09
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The technology you quote is straight from the 1980s.
Do tell me how "turning the fuelling up" reduces CO2 emissions. Did you forget this was the objective?
We have people working in powertrain development with long service. They clean the toilets in the building but know nothing about the required engineering.
Black smoke is the result of incomplete combustion, caused by poor engine design, insufficient modelling of combustion, manufacture of engine scantlings, valve timing, gas flow, rheology and mixture concentration.
I don't know what "pumpe douze" is. I suspect you mean our pumpe duse injection system, used in vehicles up to about 10 years ago, when we went to common-rail so as to inject fuel into the engine multiple times during each cycle.
If we highly pressurise the fuel, it expands rapidly on injection into the cylinder, producing tiny droplets with very large surface area, as described previously. Increasing the fuel volume worsens combustion as well as efficiency and power. We use the stoichiometric ratio, no more and no less.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, as you epitomise.
If I want help designing my engines in future, I may call on you and prevent you wasting your life with another 40,000 posts.
Then again, I may not.
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facade
post Sun, 23 Sep 2018 - 09:21
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I always thought the efficiency of a diesel came from running it unthrottled, with complete cylinder filling, and you add more fuel to expand the air more and get more power, so most of the time it runs with lambda way over 1, hitting the magic 1.00 (14.7:1) only at peak power.

But then I still live in an era where diesels say "Perkins" or "Gardner" on the side biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
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The Rookie
post Sun, 23 Sep 2018 - 10:07
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QUOTE (seank @ Sun, 23 Sep 2018 - 10:09) *
The technology you quote is straight from the 1980s.
Do tell me how "turning the fuelling up" reduces CO2 emissions. Did you forget this was the objective?
We have people working in powertrain development with long service. They clean the toilets in the building but know nothing about the required engineering.
Black smoke is the result of incomplete combustion, caused by poor engine design, insufficient modelling of combustion, manufacture of engine scantlings, valve timing, gas flow, rheology and mixture concentration.
I don't know what "pumpe douze" is. I suspect you mean our pumpe duse injection system, used in vehicles up to about 10 years ago, when we went to common-rail so as to inject fuel into the engine multiple times during each cycle.
If we highly pressurise the fuel, it expands rapidly on injection into the cylinder, producing tiny droplets with very large surface area, as described previously. Increasing the fuel volume worsens combustion as well as efficiency and power. We use the stoichiometric ratio, no more and no less.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, as you epitomise.
If I want help designing my engines in future, I may call on you and prevent you wasting your life with another 40,000 posts.
Then again, I may not.

Again, your actual experience? Who have you worked with, how long? I’ve summarised mine above.

Where did I say turning up the fuel decreased CO2 emissions? The extra fuel is used as part of the cheat when it knows it’s not in test, which is why it’s now gone, as has the throttle response.

Sorry, the delights of auto correct on Pumpe Duse, and yes I explained why it was dropped, you just agreed with me.

Black smoke is the result of imcomplete combustion, when there isn’t enough Oxygen to oxidise the fuel to just water and CO2 (plus trace other) hence why you end up with Carbon and carbonised fuel remains, aka Black smoke.

Liquids are incompressible, so no it doesn’t expand in injection.....it does have a very small droplet size though as a result of the shearing through ever smaller orifices and higher injection pressures at part load than would otherwise be used (which actually degrade fuel economy due to the increased pump drive torque).

Diesels do not use Stoichiometric ratio, that’s Petrols, at Stoich a Diesel is already smoking like a beatch, typically about 17-16.5:1 is the richest you can run a Diesel, then you clean up the resulting NOx, HC and CO are not an issue and the DPF deals with the particulates.

As you say your little knowledge is a very dangerous thing.


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seank
post Sun, 23 Sep 2018 - 10:56
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 23 Sep 2018 - 11:07) *
QUOTE (seank @ Sun, 23 Sep 2018 - 10:09) *
The technology you quote is straight from the 1980s.
Do tell me how "turning the fuelling up" reduces CO2 emissions. Did you forget this was the objective?
We have people working in powertrain development with long service. They clean the toilets in the building but know nothing about the required engineering.
Black smoke is the result of incomplete combustion, caused by poor engine design, insufficient modelling of combustion, manufacture of engine scantlings, valve timing, gas flow, rheology and mixture concentration.
I don't know what "pumpe douze" is. I suspect you mean our pumpe duse injection system, used in vehicles up to about 10 years ago, when we went to common-rail so as to inject fuel into the engine multiple times during each cycle.
If we highly pressurise the fuel, it expands rapidly on injection into the cylinder, producing tiny droplets with very large surface area, as described previously. Increasing the fuel volume worsens combustion as well as efficiency and power. We use the stoichiometric ratio, no more and no less.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, as you epitomise.
If I want help designing my engines in future, I may call on you and prevent you wasting your life with another 40,000 posts.
Then again, I may not.

Again, your actual experience? Who have you worked with, how long? I’ve summarised mine above.

Where did I say turning up the fuel decreased CO2 emissions? The extra fuel is used as part of the cheat when it knows it’s not in test, which is why it’s now gone, as has the throttle response.

Sorry, the delights of auto correct on Pumpe Duse, and yes I explained why it was dropped, you just agreed with me.

Black smoke is the result of imcomplete combustion, when there isn’t enough Oxygen to oxidise the fuel to just water and CO2 (plus trace other) hence why you end up with Carbon and carbonised fuel remains, aka Black smoke.

Liquids are incompressible, so no it doesn’t expand in injection.....it does have a very small droplet size though as a result of the shearing through ever smaller orifices and higher injection pressures at part load than would otherwise be used (which actually degrade fuel economy due to the increased pump drive torque).

Diesels do not use Stoichiometric ratio, that’s Petrols, at Stoich a Diesel is already smoking like a beatch, typically about 17-16.5:1 is the richest you can run a Diesel, then you clean up the resulting NOx, HC and CO are not an issue and the DPF deals with the particulates.

As you say your little knowledge is a very dangerous thing.


I am a chartered engineer, qualified at Leeds University many years ago. This Forum is not for personal aggrandisement or social remembrance. I suggest you go on Facebook for that. Personally, I couldn't care less about your history. You seem to spend all your "life" on here.
No extra fuel is used in trying to "cheat" any testing.
If I compress a liquid to high pressure and then release the pressure, the molecules of that liquid expand into the available volume and it becomes gaseous. If you look at superheated water at 150C which is then injected into a vessel, the liquid water immediately forms gaseous steam which effectively cooks whatever is in the vessel. You fail to comprehend basic physics.
What pressure do you imagine a natural gas flame burns at? It burns at 1 bar, regardless of the pipeline pressure. Your lack of basic knowledge amazes me.
"Auto correct" is a good excuse, except that it shows you haven't checked what you posted, however it was written.

I have spent enough time arguing with you. I shall not continue. I do not like you. Your work dilutes that of the bright, knowledgeable posters here. Good morning.

This post has been edited by seank: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 - 10:58
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The Rookie
post Sun, 23 Sep 2018 - 11:21
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Chartered maybe, but your experience is in.......I guess not engines or you’d have said?

I didn’t say it was trying to cheat it, I said it was used as part of the cheat to improve driveability, you can check out all the owners comments and dyno tests and it’s all there, I don’t have to make it up, and they’ve stopped puffing smoke.

Liquid is near enough incompressible for heavens sake, the expansion you say is there and what it does just DOES NOT HAPPEN. Evaporation of a liquid above it’s boiling point and expansion of a liquid still as a liquid are totally different, that is understanding basic physics.....

I’d give up arguing, as clearly I do know more than you despite what you may say.


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DastardlyDick
post Mon, 1 Oct 2018 - 23:01
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QUOTE (facade @ Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 10:06) *
Driving to work I am now besieged by radio adverts to sign up with Slater & Gordon and their action against VW..


S & G must think there's money (for them) in this - they've had a massive billboard advert by the side of the A40 in Park Royal for the last 3 weeks!
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peterguk
post Tue, 2 Oct 2018 - 09:25
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Ignoring the willy waving for a moment how can the behaviour of a liquid (diesel) be compared with super heated steam? wacko.gif


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seank
post Tue, 2 Oct 2018 - 11:36
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 2 Oct 2018 - 10:25) *
Ignoring the willy waving for a moment how can the behaviour of a liquid (diesel) be compared with super heated steam? wacko.gif

RTFQ.
Nobody wrote about superheated steam.
Superheated water, at 150C and 8 bar pressure, literally explodes into tiny droplets when released into atmospheric pressure.
Precisely the same as a drop of diesel does when released from a high-pressure rail into a low pressure engine cylinder.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 2 Oct 2018 - 12:14
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No superheated water boils when released into atmospheric pressure, Diesel fuel into a combustion chamber doesn’t, that’s why the analogy is a failure.


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seank
post Tue, 2 Oct 2018 - 13:32
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 2 Oct 2018 - 13:14) *
No superheated water boils when released into atmospheric pressure, Diesel fuel into a combustion chamber doesn’t, that’s why the analogy is a failure.

Personally, I couldn't care less whether you agree or not. I maintain my assertion.
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The Rookie
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 09:08
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I'm sure you do, but its self evidently untrue. I suggest you stop reading press releases, I've mostly given up as they wind me up with the litany of errors they contain.


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DastardlyDick
post Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 09:35
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I'm not an engineer or emissions specialist, but I always thought that the "puff of smoke" from diesel cars was the particulate filter being cleaned.

All the BMWs at work do it.
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The Rookie
post Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 10:24
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The DPF regeneration (cleaning) isn't on pull away, it needs stability of load, you will get some smoke (more than a puff) as it starts.

The classic puff on pull away is over fuelling to increase the exhaust gas energy to spool the turbo sooner to improve driveability.


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Unzippy
post Fri, 5 Oct 2018 - 02:51
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It also depends on the age of the engine. I remember Dad's Peugeot 306 diesel never used to produce black smoke when he drove it, but then he rarely engaged the turbo. When I drove it there was immense clouds of black smoke generated the first few times I wound the turbo up.
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The Rookie
post Sun, 7 Oct 2018 - 07:39
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Yep, just blowing out accumulated soot in the exhaust, very common on gently driven diesels that are then driven hard.

I recall one car at work laying out so much there was a visible line of soot on the road behind it it, the car had a boost leak and had Ben driven for about 1000 miles without having that higher airflow and yet with it overfueling in places when it should have been on boost.


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Itchy Bootmore
post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 20:19
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Folks
I have to say - a fascinating debate! Its not often you find 2 engineer types debating actual engineering/physics in this day and age....
Whoever is right.... keep it up. Spock would be proud. Thoroughly enjoyable. laugh.gif
Now, for what its worth... and to pour petrol in the diesel fire:
I can recall when Heseltine closed the Warren Spring Environmental Research Lab (part of DTI) which carried out the environmental monitoring across the country on behalf of DoE including the emission testing of engines for the UK manufacturers on the rolling roads in the Vehicle Testing Bays. PA Consulting produced at the time a self-serving report that 'showed'private industry could do the testing 'more efficiently'. Predicted at the time was that this would mean a lack of independence, impartiality and objectivity with private industry reinforcing the desired results of the paymasters. Which has now been amply demonstrated with the emission testing scandals of these large corporations.
Incidentally, the study of excess deaths resulting from diesel emissions needs to be put into context- a read of tge actual data shows whilst 10 or 20000 deaths may result, the shortening of life compared to expected lifespan varied from 1 week to 1 yr (might be a touch more) from age 80 or so. Which actually wasnt much more than the error limits / variations in the datasets.
So I am going to enjoy diesel motoring for quite a bit longer. But am going to object to the pointless 3rd runway at Heathrow, given the study showing the attribution of pollution to aircraft during the Icelandic volcano eruption that grounded planes and allowed separation of the emissions data in that part of West London. tongue.gif


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Alright, hold tight, I'm a highway star......"
bleeooowwrrgghhhh!!!!
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