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Bus gate PCN
Albion1
post Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 19:20
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Hi all,

New to the forum. I’ve received a ticket for driving in a bus lane. I work nearby and am aware of the restrictions. The lane in question becomes non-operational after 09.30am. My car has been caught on CCTV at 09.29 (to be exact, I was apparently there a full 38 seconds before I should’ve been). As I said I’m aware of the restrictions, and as such distinctly remember checking my car’s clock on the day in question, and the time there read 09.31. What are my options here? I’m assuming the cctv timing is more accurate than my car clock, and as far as I’m aware there is no grace period (at least I can’t find one mentioned anywhere on the council website). Should I just appeal on compassionate grounds, and argue that this too trivial to be deserving of a fine? Or be more argumentative with them and ask how the cctv time is calibrated, how often it’s accuracy is checked, start checking all relevant signage etc? Any and all help much appreciated! [indent][/indent]
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post Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 19:20
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stamfordman
post Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 20:52
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The right way with this to say it's a 'de minimis' trivial contravention but be firm that it is trivial and would not be upheld by an adjudicator. We have several cases on this to back you up.

let's see all the PCN and the video of you have it.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.

Put videos on Youtube, Vimeo or such like.

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nextdoor
post Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 21:03
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The adjudication in Mohamed Byanouni v London Borough of Barnet (218015398A) seems to fit the bill:

"This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of being stopped in a restricted area outside a school when prohibited. The alleged contravention occurred in Clovelly Avenue at 4.14pm on 8 March 2018.

I have looked at the CCTV footage and also the site images submitted by the Council. These show that Mr Byanouni's vehicle was stopped on entrance markings in front of Colindale Primary School. They also show that there is a sign at the location warning motorists that there is no stopping on the entrance markings between 2.45pm and 4.15pm Mondays to Fridays.

Mr Byanouni appeals because he says that he stopped to pick up his children from school. He says that he is well aware of the restrictions and that the clock in his car showed the time of 4.15pm. The Council says that its clock is calibrated according to the Atomic Clock, ensuring 100% accuracy. The CCTV timing shows the vehicle stopping at 4:14:18.

I accept the evidence of Mr Byanouni that the clock in his car showed the time of 4.15pm. I find that the alleged contravention did not occur. There must be some application of common sense. Motorists cannot all be expected to wear time pieces calibrated to the exact second according to the Atomic Clock. A motorist reading an ordinary watch will not be able to know the time calculated to the exact second."
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 22:36
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The right way to challenge this is to claim as you said that your clock shows 09.31 so no contravention De minimis is a legal principle and is down to the subjective view of an adjudicator.

If you claim de minimis you are admitting a contravention and must then rely on the councils discretion. If you do that and reject you fall onto the back foot as an adjudicator cannot overturn the council decision not to apply discretion


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Albion1
post Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 22:44
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Thanks for all the help, much appreciated. Here are the images (I hope you’ll be able to see them):

https://ibb.co/n8Wd6hD

https://ibb.co/pPW2JjL

https://ibb.co/tp6g9bm

https://ibb.co/4MzdZ1m

https://ibb.co/tqGFjHY

I haven’t had access to any video yet, only received the ticket today as I’ve been away for a few days. Will appeal online ASAP once I get some feedback on the photos. Again, many thanks.
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Tank40
post Thu, 12 Dec 2019 - 07:46
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What a horrible trap. Why don't they use a banned left turn 0730-0930 with exceptions? Money spinner.
https://www.google.com/maps/@52.6219666,1.2...6384!8i8192

A motorist would in all likelihood miss the sign just around the left corner? Kerching!
https://www.google.com/maps/@52.6218184,1.2...6384!8i8192

This post has been edited by Tank40: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 - 08:16
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Mad Mick V
post Thu, 12 Dec 2019 - 09:49
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Been there for about 30 years.

Here's the latest TRO:-

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/braz...ncoming-1466660

I don't think we've ever seen the location on this forum but I predict some fun and games on lines and signs.

Mick
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DancingDad
post Thu, 12 Dec 2019 - 11:23
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QUOTE (Tank40 @ Thu, 12 Dec 2019 - 07:46) *
What a horrible trap. Why don't they use a banned left turn 0730-0930 with exceptions? Money spinner.
https://www.google.com/maps/@52.6219666,1.2...6384!8i8192

A motorist would in all likelihood miss the sign just around the left corner? Kerching!
https://www.google.com/maps/@52.6218184,1.2...6384!8i8192


Not sure what you are trying to say but cannot say there is no pre-warning should a motorist approach from the side road.
https://www.google.com/maps/@52.6219666,1.2...6384!8i8192

This is simply on timing.
Dear Sirs
Contravention did not occur
I was relying on my car clock which showed.....
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 12 Dec 2019 - 11:27
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 12 Dec 2019 - 11:23) *
QUOTE (Tank40 @ Thu, 12 Dec 2019 - 07:46) *
What a horrible trap. Why don't they use a banned left turn 0730-0930 with exceptions? Money spinner.
https://www.google.com/maps/@52.6219666,1.2...6384!8i8192

A motorist would in all likelihood miss the sign just around the left corner? Kerching!
https://www.google.com/maps/@52.6218184,1.2...6384!8i8192


Not sure what you are trying to say but cannot say there is no pre-warning should a motorist approach from the side road.
https://www.google.com/maps/@52.6219666,1.2...6384!8i8192

This is simply on timing.
Dear Sirs
Contravention did not occur
I was relying on my car clock which showed.....


Signage as well DD they should have used sign 619 if not using road legend


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stamfordman
post Thu, 12 Dec 2019 - 11:56
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Yes scrap what I said - PMB is right and and do not concede the contravention. The point made by the adjudicator in the case posted is that there was no contravention because clocks were so close in time.
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DancingDad
post Thu, 12 Dec 2019 - 12:02
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 12 Dec 2019 - 11:27) *
……….

Signage as well DD they should have used sign 619 if not using road legend


Not arguing one way or another, simply saying that the best way to start is simple, on the time aspect and a plea for discretion should they still believe that a contravention occured.

Should council reject then signs etc can be added as..... following the council rejection I have investigated further and.....
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Mad Mick V
post Thu, 12 Dec 2019 - 12:41
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Remember that in order to use cameras we must have a bus lane regardless of the times of operation. In my view there are no road markings which signify a bus lane, there is no AWS in Grove Road specifying a bus lane ahead, I also have some doubts to the use of the matrix type sign on a side road.

I think there is sufficient here to justify a claim that the Council has not fulfilled its duty under Reg18 LATOR 1996.

Mick
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 12 Dec 2019 - 14:15
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Thu, 12 Dec 2019 - 12:41) *
Remember that in order to use cameras we must have a bus lane regardless of the times of operation. In my view there are no road markings which signify a bus lane, there is no AWS in Grove Road specifying a bus lane ahead, I also have some doubts to the use of the matrix type sign on a side road.

I think there is sufficient here to justify a claim that the Council has not fulfilled its duty under Reg18 LATOR 1996.

Mick


Well and truly, but I am not averse to DD suggestion of a simple my clock said 09.31 but it is formal reps so personally would launch the kitchen sink now. We tend to miss reg 10(1)(b) of the bus lane regs and whilst we claim failure to consider we do not make the point that every appeal point must be considered not a generalisation

Simples will get us well past xmas before needing an in depth look


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DancingDad
post Thu, 12 Dec 2019 - 15:19
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Thu, 12 Dec 2019 - 12:41) *
………. there is no AWS in Grove Road specifying a bus lane ahead, I also have some doubts to the use of the matrix type sign on a side road.

I think there is sufficient here to justify a claim that the Council has not fulfilled its duty under Reg18 LATOR 1996.

Mick

There is an advanced warning sign on Grove, at the island a little further up.
Agreed on the lack of road markings and question mark on the matrix sign but still think that any challenge should first and foremost be on the timing.

I'm wandering if adding a query on the signs and lines, such as would they provide the Sec of State approval for none standard signage should they reject would set it up nicely?
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 12 Dec 2019 - 15:26
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 12 Dec 2019 - 15:19) *
QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Thu, 12 Dec 2019 - 12:41) *
………. there is no AWS in Grove Road specifying a bus lane ahead, I also have some doubts to the use of the matrix type sign on a side road.

I think there is sufficient here to justify a claim that the Council has not fulfilled its duty under Reg18 LATOR 1996.

Mick

There is an advanced warning sign on Grove, at the island a little further up.
Agreed on the lack of road markings and question mark on the matrix sign but still think that any challenge should first and foremost be on the timing.

I'm wandering if adding a query on the signs and lines, such as would they provide the Sec of State approval for none standard signage should they reject would set it up nicely?


that's not a bad shout, it covers both VMS and road legend


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DancingDad
post Thu, 12 Dec 2019 - 15:46
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Another thought on the timing and as OP is a local.
Any way you can check when the sign goes off?
One assumes it is on a timer but how exact it that?
Doesn't need to be immediate but may lend ammo to any further appeal.
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Albion1
post Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 01:04
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Thanks for all suggestions. So just to be clear (I’m new to all this), it seems my best move is to go with a no contravention occurred defence, on the basis that I acted in good faith and went by the time on my clock, unaware it was out of sync with the cctv timing. What I’m not 100% sure on is whether I should include any complaints about signage and road markings in my first appeal, or save this for a later date if the clock defence fails?
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 09:27
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OP---Concentrate on the timing issue but, as an aside, ask if they have DfT approval for the lines and signs at this location.

In essence any subsequent appeal on lines and signs may founder if they have permission for the current set up.


Mick
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stamfordman
post Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 09:58
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Draft something and post here first.
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Albion1
post Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 12:23
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I was thinking along the lines of:

Dear Sir Madam,
I would like to make representations regarding PCN (insert PCN reference) which I recently received, alleging a bus lane contravention on my part on Grove Road in Norwich on (insert date). I would like to appeal on the statutory grounds that no such contravention occurred. I work in the area and, as such, am familiar with the bus lane. As I’m sure you are aware, this lane ceases to be operational from 9.30am onwards. On the morning in question I ensured I checked the time on my car clock as I approached the junction, which read 09.31, and thus I proceeded in good faith, believing that the lane restrictions were no longer in place.
As you can see from the images on the PCN the alleged contravention occurred at 09:29:22, just 38 seconds before the lane restrictions would be lifted. It seems to me to be unreasonable to expect motorists clocks to be so accurately synced with the time on the councils CCTV that such a trivial violation becomes worthy of a fine. This has been well established in similar cases, where adjudications have found in favour of people in my position (see, for example, Mohamed Byanouni v London Borough of Barnet [218015398A], along with numerous others). I hope common sense can prevail here, and that the fine will be overturned.
Furthermore, I would like to enquire as to whether you have the correct DfT approval for the signs and lines around this particular bus lane, given that they do not seem to fully satisfy national guidelines?
I look forward to your response.
Yours faithfully,
(Name)

Sound ok?
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