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[NIP Wizard] NIP - Help
Mrslow
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 17:33
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - January 2018
Date of the NIP: - 5 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 19 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A3 Anglesea Road, Portsmouth
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - NIP is dated Tenth /1/18 and the letter has a stamp of Eleventh /1/18, NIP received at the registered car address on Twenty fourth /1/18 (1st class stamp)

Allegation of speeding, exceed thirty mph on restricted road - manned equipment. Recorded speed of fifty six mph.

The allegation is supported by video/dvd &/or photographic evidence. (no evidence enclosed with NIP)

Clear, dry day, with clear road, cannot recall travelling at such speed, did notice the speed camera van parked in a very restricted area with road lamp posts and road signs directly in front, operating behind a road island on cross marked white lines and behind a railway bridge. Equipment pointing past the bridge. Looks as it could be very difficult to hit a direct speed reading point from the car and the reading could possibly be of the travelling wheel.

There are no speed limit signs for a very long stretch of the road - I understand that as I driver, it is my responsibility to be aware of the limit.

Would appreciate any help or advice as it is a serious allegation with damaging circumstances follow.

Am I in the position to request;

1. To see full evidence of the allegation
2. To ask to see the site survey of where the equipment was operated
3. To ask the exact model of manned equipment used
4. To ask for calibration records of the equipment
5. To ask for training/qualification records of the operator

Could a railway bridge with train tracks and power lines affect the reading of the equipment?


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - No
Was there a valid reason for the NIP's late arrival? - Unsure
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 17:33:05 +0000

This post has been edited by Mrslow: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 18:39
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post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 17:33
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Jlc
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 17:50
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You can ask anything you like but as this stage (name the driver) it is unlikely they’ll provide anything you request.

That excess will be going to court so there will be opportunity for disclosure later. But you can’t go on a fishing trip for stuff you’d like.

The power lines/train tracks have no impact. (And you would have to show it did rather than it could have)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 17:57


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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southpaw82
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 17:52
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QUOTE (Mrslow @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 17:33) *
Am I in the position to request;

1. To see full evidence of the allegation
2. To ask to see the site survey of where the equipment was operated
3. To ask the exact model of manned equipment used
4. To ask for calibration records of the equipment
5. To ask for training/qualification records of the operator


You can request anything you like. They don’t have to give it to you. What would you do with it if you got it? How is it relevant to your case?

QUOTE
Could a railway bridge with train tracks and power lines affect the reading of the equipment?


Can you prove it did?

The late NIP is potentially your best defence.


--------------------
Moderator

Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Jlc
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 17:56
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The NIP is dated and appears to have been posted in good time. It would be your onus to show it did not arrive in time. (Presumed to be 2 working days)

Is the date you give when it dropped through the letterbox or the date you received it? (And if it was the former can you prove it?)

Regardless of any ‘late’ NIP the driver needs naming.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Mrslow
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 18:26
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 17:50) *
You can ask anything you like but as this stage (name the driver) it is unlikely they’ll provide anything you request.

That excess will be going to court so there will be opportunity for disclosure later. But you can’t go on a fishing trip for stuff you’d like.

The power lines/train tracks have no impact. (And you would have to show it did rather than it could have)



QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 17:56) *
The NIP is dated and appears to have been posted in good time. It would be your onus to show it did not arrive in time. (Presumed to be 2 working days)

Is the date you give when it dropped through the letterbox or the date you received it? (And if it was the former can you prove it?)

Regardless of any ‘late’ NIP the driver needs naming.


Thanks for the fast response, I'm just trying to work out where I stand with this, to ensure that the allegation is legitimate with adequate evidence to show the allegation, a written format suggesting that evidence is present unfortunately does not give a clear indication of what the evidence is showing.

The letter arrived, through the letter box today, I'm not sure how proof can be obtained on my behalf to demonstrate that the letter has arrived today.

To confirm, there is no issue in providing the required details in response to the NIP.

QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 17:52) *
QUOTE (Mrslow @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 17:33) *
Am I in the position to request;

1. To see full evidence of the allegation
2. To ask to see the site survey of where the equipment was operated
3. To ask the exact model of manned equipment used
4. To ask for calibration records of the equipment
5. To ask for training/qualification records of the operator


You can request anything you like. They don’t have to give it to you. What would you do with it if you got it? How is it relevant to your case?

QUOTE
Could a railway bridge with train tracks and power lines affect the reading of the equipment?


Can you prove it did?

The late NIP is potentially your best defence.


As above, trying to establish my position and the validity of the allegation.

And no, at the moment being I have no means to prove any effect of the railway bridge or power lines on the equipment, but was hoping that a light can be shed in this direction in possible relation to previous cases.

There is no suggestion of delivery date on the NIP envelope, but it has dropped through the letterbox today.
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peterguk
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 18:35
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QUOTE (Mrslow @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 18:26) *
There is no suggestion of delivery date on the NIP envelope, but it has dropped through the letterbox today.


Do you have any history of post delivery issues?

As you have alluded to, convincing a court of the late delivery is not going to be easy. To give you an idea, my NIP was also posted on day 5, arrived day 16.

However, unlike you i had my postman as a witness, and there was a national postal strike.

I was still found guilty in the lower courts.


--------------------
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rosysparkle
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 18:43
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Is the address on your V5C exactly correct?

You can ask for a photograph (which may be a still from a video) and they probably will provide that to you. Conventional wisdom is not to mention proof or evidence as part of your request - you can say that you want to the photo to aid you in identifying the driver.

The rest of your requests are very unlikely to be provided to you unless you take the case to court, and even then you won't be able to go on a fishing trip.
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Mrslow
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 18:52
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 18:35) *
QUOTE (Mrslow @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 18:26) *
There is no suggestion of delivery date on the NIP envelope, but it has dropped through the letterbox today.


Do you have any history of post delivery issues?

As you have alluded to, convincing a court of the late delivery is not going to be easy. To give you an idea, my NIP was also posted on day 5, arrived day 16.

However, unlike you i had my postman as a witness, and there was a national postal strike.

I was still found guilty in the lower courts.


I'm not aware of any present issues, but the royal mail service is definitely not the service to praise - it could be difficult getting hold of the postman for any feedback with working commitments which mean that no-one is home at the time that post is delivered.

QUOTE (rosysparkle @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 18:43) *
Is the address on your V5C exactly correct?

You can ask for a photograph (which may be a still from a video) and they probably will provide that to you. Conventional wisdom is not to mention proof or evidence as part of your request - you can say that you want to the photo to aid you in identifying the driver.

The rest of your requests are very unlikely to be provided to you unless you take the case to court, and even then you won't be able to go on a fishing trip.


Yes, all details are correct and as they should be, I have not crossed referenced the two documents, but tax reminders come through without no issue from the DVLA on this vehicle.

It will give me at least something, but not necessarily the proof of the offence which I was hoping to ascertain.

I think the amount exceeded by automatically admissions the case to court..
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peterguk
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 19:02
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QUOTE (Mrslow @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 18:52) *
it could be difficult getting hold of the postman for any feedback


Sorry, didn't make myself clear. My postman was able to say when he gave the NIP to me, and that he saw me open it in front of him.


--------------------
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notmeatloaf
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 19:08
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If you don't have anything to back up the NIP being late then it would probably be a big chance to try it as a defence in court. Worth asking your postman though, you never know.

If you ask the police for "photos to help identify the driver" then you will probably get sent the shot immediately after the reading, which will show you where the crosshairs are, although the crosshairs are set up by the operator rather than gun so not guaranteed to be accurate.

Ltis are old technology now and the manufacturer declines to say much about target selection. However, the beam gets larger and larger as it makes away (not like a laser pointer) and it is likely to be as simple as selecting the strongest return beam - basically the biggest thing it hits. So it should always return a car rather than a wheel. Of course nothing is guaranteed but as losing a contested trial costs so much it is really only worth considering if you think it highly likely you were going slower.
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Mrslow
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 19:29
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 19:02) *
QUOTE (Mrslow @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 18:52) *
it could be difficult getting hold of the postman for any feedback


Sorry, didn't make myself clear. My postman was able to say when he gave the NIP to me, and that he saw me open it in front of him.


Ah ok, no, the postman wouldn't of seen me as the letter was dropped in whilst I was at work, I guess the only option remaining is to try to take a day off to steak out the postman to seek information, but highly unlikely that they would remember the visual content of the letters that they drop in on daily basis, it is a standard white envelope - so I don't think that there is much hope in this area.

It still amazes me how in current day and age, with the restricted period to issue the NIP, it is not sent via a recorded service.

QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 19:08) *
If you don't have anything to back up the NIP being late then it would probably be a big chance to try it as a defence in court. Worth asking your postman though, you never know.

If you ask the police for "photos to help identify the driver" then you will probably get sent the shot immediately after the reading, which will show you where the crosshairs are, although the crosshairs are set up by the operator rather than gun so not guaranteed to be accurate.

Ltis are old technology now and the manufacturer declines to say much about target selection. However, the beam gets larger and larger as it makes away (not like a laser pointer) and it is likely to be as simple as selecting the strongest return beam - basically the biggest thing it hits. So it should always return a car rather than a wheel. Of course nothing is guaranteed but as losing a contested trial costs so much it is really only worth considering if you think it highly likely you were going slower.


Photo for identification purposes seems to be the best way of obtaining any form of evidence at this stage, thanks for the feedback. I can't recall the speed from the day, but the alleged speed recorded took me by surprise.

I have added a little about speed limit signage, or lack of it, would be great to get thoughts on this too.
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peterguk
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 19:48
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QUOTE (Mrslow @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 19:29) *
It still amazes me how in current day and age, with the restricted period to issue the NIP, it is not sent via a recorded service.


A letter sent Recorded Delivery can be refused by simply not signing for it.


--------------------
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Ocelot
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 19:55
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Don't mention the word 'evidence' in the letter requesting photographs, as they are not obliged to provide you with any unless you plead NG and get disclosure in Court.

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Jlc
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 20:00
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QUOTE (Mrslow @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 19:29) *
I have added a little about speed limit signage, or lack of it, would be great to get thoughts on this too.

It's a restricted road (30mph) by virtue of the system of street lighting. Without signage to the contrary it's a 30. Effectively there's a 'sign' at least every 200 yards or so.

The Anglesea Road part of the A3 isn't that long - here.

QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 19:48) *
QUOTE (Mrslow @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 19:29) *
It still amazes me how in current day and age, with the restricted period to issue the NIP, it is not sent via a recorded service.

A letter sent Recorded Delivery can be refused by simply not signing for it.

Indeed, the current system is covered in law and the burden of proof is on you. (Assuming the force can reasonably show the system entered the mail system - and the date on the stamp doesn't seem to assist you here)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 20:01


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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southpaw82
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 20:15
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QUOTE (Mrslow @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 19:29) *
It still amazes me how in current day and age, with the restricted period to issue the NIP, it is not sent via a recorded service.

You don't want that

QUOTE
(2) A notice shall be deemed for the purposes of subsection (1)© above to have been served on a person if it was sent by registered post or recorded delivery service addressed to him at his last known address, notwithstanding that the notice was returned as undelivered or was for any other reason not received by him.


--------------------
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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Mrslow
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 22:39
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QUOTE (Ocelot @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 19:55) *
Don't mention the word 'evidence' in the letter requesting photographs, as they are not obliged to provide you with any unless you plead NG and get disclosure in Court.


Is there any guidance of how this could be worded?
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Jlc
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 22:42
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Usually best to ask to assist in the identification of the driver.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Mrslow
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 22:43
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 20:15) *
QUOTE (Mrslow @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 19:29) *
It still amazes me how in current day and age, with the restricted period to issue the NIP, it is not sent via a recorded service.

You don't want that

QUOTE
(2) A notice shall be deemed for the purposes of subsection (1)© above to have been served on a person if it was sent by registered post or recorded delivery service addressed to him at his last known address, notwithstanding that the notice was returned as undelivered or was for any other reason not received by him.



Yes, but surely in this case it would show the evidence of date of the attempted delivery or date signed for. Doesn't really matter now, as there isn't much that can be done
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peterguk
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 22:44
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QUOTE (Mrslow @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 22:39) *
QUOTE (Ocelot @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 19:55) *
Don't mention the word 'evidence' in the letter requesting photographs, as they are not obliged to provide you with any unless you plead NG and get disclosure in Court.


Is there any guidance of how this could be worded?


Dear Sir

I refer to NIP reference xxxxxx.

Please provide me with any photographs that may assist me with identification of the driver.

Love and kisses


--------------------
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Mrslow
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 22:48
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 20:00) *
QUOTE (Mrslow @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 19:29) *
I have added a little about speed limit signage, or lack of it, would be great to get thoughts on this too.

It's a restricted road (30mph) by virtue of the system of street lighting. Without signage to the contrary it's a 30. Effectively there's a 'sign' at least every 200 yards or so.

The Anglesea Road part of the A3 isn't that long - here.

Yes, these are also my thoughts, but at the same time, if speeding is an issue in the area, it would make more sense to remind drivers. Travelling in the other direction, there are no speed signs for the a3 road from the m275. But again, I do understand that it is drivers responsibility to know the limit.

QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 19:48) *
QUOTE (Mrslow @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 19:29) *
It still amazes me how in current day and age, with the restricted period to issue the NIP, it is not sent via a recorded service.

A letter sent Recorded Delivery can be refused by simply not signing for it.

Indeed, the current system is covered in law and the burden of proof is on you. (Assuming the force can reasonably show the system entered the mail system - and the date on the stamp doesn't seem to assist you here)



QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 22:42) *
Usually best to ask to assist in the identification of the driver.



QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 22:44) *
QUOTE (Mrslow @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 22:39) *
QUOTE (Ocelot @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 19:55) *
Don't mention the word 'evidence' in the letter requesting photographs, as they are not obliged to provide you with any unless you plead NG and get disclosure in Court.


Is there any guidance of how this could be worded?


Dear Sir

I refer to NIP reference xxxxxx.

Please provide me with any photographs that may assist me with identification of the driver.

Love and kisses



So not filling out the NIP, just writing to them with the following request and reference to the NIP?
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