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M62 conundrum speed limits, variable limits and the law
oldstoat
post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 19:54
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This image is part of the M62 eastbound as can be seen there is an overhead gantry. When it is lit it has the digital version of red circled speed limits

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.7293503,-1....3312!8i6656

now if you follow the road to this point


https://www.google.com/maps/@53.7282396,-1....3312!8i6656


you will notice that at no point have you passed a sign saying end of variable speed limits.

Yest when the gantry on the left is lit, it only shows a speed limit, without the red circle.

Question If you drive past point one, showing a legally enforced red circle 40mph. If the advisory limit sign says 60mph at point 2

Which limit legally applies after point 2

This post has been edited by oldstoat: Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 19:56


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post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 19:54
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DancingDad
post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 20:11
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QUOTE (oldstoat @ Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 19:54) *
...........Which limit legally applies after point 2



Same as applied before the advisory sign.


Which is not to say there is not massive scope for confusion.
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oldstoat
post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 20:14
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 20:11) *
QUOTE (oldstoat @ Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 19:54) *
...........Which limit legally applies after point 2



Same as applied before the advisory sign.


Which is not to say there is not massive scope for confusion.



that is what I thought, but can you imagine seeing a legal 40mph, then driving all the way to the A63 at 40mph after seeing advisory limit speeds of 50mph or 60mph.


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typefish
post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 23:27
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Junction 30 would like to say hello
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southpaw82
post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 23:28
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 20:11) *
QUOTE (oldstoat @ Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 19:54) *
...........Which limit legally applies after point 2



Same as applied before the advisory sign.


Which is not to say there is not massive scope for confusion.

If there’s massive scope for confusion then has adequate guidance been given? (Is adequate guidance the correct test?)


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DancingDad
post Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 10:01
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 23:28) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 20:11) *
QUOTE (oldstoat @ Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 19:54) *
...........Which limit legally applies after point 2


Same as applied before the advisory sign.
Which is not to say there is not massive scope for confusion.

If there’s massive scope for confusion then has adequate guidance been given? (Is adequate guidance the correct test?)


In strict terms of the law, whether or not signage was adequate or could confuse would be an issue for a court to decide on should someone cop a speeding ticket and decide to fight.
Strict black and white says that the last regulatory sign is the one that applies but.....

I was thinking more on the way differing drivers will interpret.
Those who stick rigidly to the letter and continue on at 40mph. (or even 35 "to be on the safe side")
Those who decide the 40 can no longer apply so speed up towards 60 but err on the side of caution.
Those that regard the advisory as regulatory so not only speed up but get annoyed with those who don't.
Those that decide 40 no longer applies and know that 60 is advisory so speed up to 70 (or the magic 77 keeping 2mph in reserve)
Plus those who are ignoring speed limits anyway and MLOC and tailgaters etc.

We had the discussion a while back on what a blank sign in a VSL meant.
This is little different in reality.
The true meaning is that those who set the signs have cocked up.
But that is of little comfort to those trying to do the right thing and make correct judgements.
There are certainly times when drivers have to make judgements and the sensible one may not accord with strict interpretation.
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StationCat
post Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 12:37
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I think the key word here is 'advisory'


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DancingDad
post Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 13:19
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QUOTE (StationCat @ Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 12:37) *
I think the key word here is 'advisory'

Probably post 4 actually wink.gif

I have seen the situation elsewhere when there was no sneaky End of VSL sign though.
A38m out of Birmingham during a period of roadworks that led to restrictions.
Proper metal signs within roadwork area (and plenty of repeaters) setting a 30mph limit.
Overhead gantry signs showing advisory 40mph.
Lots of traffic still trying to do the normal 50 limit.
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cp8759
post Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 20:06
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 23:28) *
If there’s massive scope for confusion then has adequate guidance been given? (Is adequate guidance the correct test?)

Section 85(4) RTRA says "...a person shall not be convicted of driving a motor vehicle on the road at a speed exceeding the limit unless the limit is indicated by means of such traffic signs as are mentioned in subsection (1) or subsection (2) above...", subsection 1 says "For the purpose of securing that adequate guidance is given to drivers of motor vehicles..." so they way I read it, that is the correct test, and if there is massive scope for confusion, only the national speed limit can be enforced.


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southpaw82
post Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 23:10
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 20:06) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 23:28) *
If there’s massive scope for confusion then has adequate guidance been given? (Is adequate guidance the correct test?)

Section 85(4) RTRA says "...a person shall not be convicted of driving a motor vehicle on the road at a speed exceeding the limit unless the limit is indicated by means of such traffic signs as are mentioned in subsection (1) or subsection (2) above...", subsection 1 says "For the purpose of securing that adequate guidance is given to drivers of motor vehicles..." so they way I read it, that is the correct test, and if there is massive scope for confusion, only the national speed limit can be enforced.

I agree. My only doubt was that the adequate guidance test that I know and love is founded in the Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 and I’ve not looked at whether it applies elsewhere.


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DancingDad
post Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 09:47
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 23:10) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 20:06) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 23:28) *
If there’s massive scope for confusion then has adequate guidance been given? (Is adequate guidance the correct test?)

Section 85(4) RTRA says "...a person shall not be convicted of driving a motor vehicle on the road at a speed exceeding the limit unless the limit is indicated by means of such traffic signs as are mentioned in subsection (1) or subsection (2) above...", subsection 1 says "For the purpose of securing that adequate guidance is given to drivers of motor vehicles..." so they way I read it, that is the correct test, and if there is massive scope for confusion, only the national speed limit can be enforced.

I agree. My only doubt was that the adequate guidance test that I know and love is founded in the Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 and I’ve not looked at whether it applies elsewhere.



Within LATOR S18 there is caveat "(3) This regulation is without prejudice to section 85 of the 1984 Act(1) (traffic signs for indicating speed limits). "
Which to me says that the 1984 act has priority on adequate guidance.


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southpaw82
post Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 10:53
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More to the point, regulations regarding a motorway won’t be made under LATOR, will they?


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