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PCN sent to old address and car has since been impounded, Car impounded
Dontgiveup2010
post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 19:38
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Hello all,

I really need some urgent help please.

Long stort short, I was returning to car my yesterday evening after work having left it parked in a street and my car was no longer there.

I immediately phoned the police as I thought my car was stolen but it turned out the car had been impounded.

The police gave me details of the company who towed the car, so I immediately phoned their 24 hrs number.

LN Recovery (towing service) confirmed they towed my car to their impound but were unable to explain why and provided me with details for Marstons Group who were delaing with debt.

I phoned Marstons Group this morning and they explained that they were managing a debt on behalf of Barnet Council for an alleged 'prohibited turn' offence I committed in June 2018.

The problem is, any letters or PCN notices were sent to my last known fixed address which I no longer reside at and I've been staying with different friends/family ever since.


I'm not sure what the original charge would have been but I can't imagine it would have been more that £150.

However, Marstons explained that when Barnet passed the debt over, it was originally £203 but with their costs i.e. towing, visits, etc. the total is now £623 with a daily charge of £18 for every day the car is left in storage.

I spoke with Barnet Council today and explained the situation and how I need the car back asap for some weekend and it's my means of transport.

Barnet gave me a couple of options:

1) Pay the full amount which essentially is admitting liability
2) Appeal with the Traffic Enforcement Team (T7) but a decision on the appeal could take upto 56 days with the risk of additional costs being added, should I lose.

Any advice will gratefully appreciated
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 21:25
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You haven't got those choices you cannot get into the appeals process until you have paid and collected the car If you dont eventually it will be sold.


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peterguk
post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 21:28
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QUOTE (Dontgiveup2010 @ Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 19:38) *
The problem is, any letters or PCN notices were sent to my last known fixed address which I no longer reside at and I've been staying with different friends/family ever since.


You are legally obliged to ensure the address DVLA hold for you is one at which you can be contacted on a timely basis. Documents like this situation and NIPs for speeding etc. need to get to you within a few days.

Find a reliable friend or relative that can receive mail for you and contact you when needed, and update your V5C and DL accordingly.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 21:46


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Incandescent
post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 21:29
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Was the address on your V5C for the car correct in June/July 2018 ?

Barnet have issued a postal PCN for an alleged traffic offence detected by CCTV as they are entitled to do under London-specific legislation. They obtained the name and address of the registered keeper, (the party responsible for payment or appeal) using an on-line link to the DVLA So that would have been sometime in June 2018. After 28 days (sometimes a bit more), they would have issued a Charge Certificate to the same name and address, (the DVLA request is only done once). With no response to the CC, they have registered the debt at the Traffic Enforcement Centre at Northampton, and then issued an Order for Recovery, again to the same address. With no response to the OfR, they have instructed bailiffs. Bailiffs livelihood depends on their ability to track people down as you have found out, so you now find yourself in a very difficult situation.

The only route to reverting the process to the original PCN is to submit an Out-of-Time Statutory Declaration that you didn't receive the original PCN. However you have to give some reason why you didn't receive the PCN, and not updating your V5 (assuming you haven't) is usually not considered good enough as the council can object to OOTs and will state that all their documents were sent to the V5C address.

If you didn't update your V5C you are basically up-the-creek without a paddle, I'm afraid. However if the traffic offence coincided with your V5C being at the DVLA for address update, you do have a good chance.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 21:34
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Neil B
post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 22:08
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QUOTE (Dontgiveup2010 @ Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 19:38) *
Barnet gave me a couple of options:

1) Pay the full amount which essentially is admitting liability
No, it doesn't mean that.


2) Appeal with the Traffic Enforcement Team (T7) but a decision on the appeal could take upto 56 days with the risk of additional costs being added, should I lose.
You've got this one wrong.
It's not an appeal; it's an 'out of time' application the the Traffic Enforcement Centre; the Court.
Forms PE2 and PE3 but don't try without our help.


There is nothing to prevent you doing both 1 AND 2 IF that turns out to be the most appropriate action.

Can you clarify the issue with your V5C before we go any further.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 08:59
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OP, I am afraid that '.....committed in June 2018.

The problem is, any letters or PCN notices were sent to my last known fixed address which I no longer reside at and I've been staying with different friends/family ever since.'


..tells us nothing really.

If you moved months before June then frankly just pay the money to get your car back, update your V5C and learn from the experience. Pl don't respond that you don't have the money because the only way you'll get your car back in a timely fashion and therefore avoid additional transport costs, possibly over an extended period, because 'it's your means of transport' is to pay. There is no procedural silver bullet. Your car is being held to give them leverage, they prefer money. But there is a crossoverpoint where the car would be worth less than the accumulated debt and charges. They would dispose of your car before then as they are permitted to do. If the car is low value, this date could be closer than you think.

We can bounce around TEC form numbers for ever, but it won't change the realities.

So:
When did your DVLA registered keeper details lapse?

And a further word of warning. If you contacted the recovery company and they know your current address(and think it's your house) then the enforcement agents will know. Pl don't risk whoever you're staying with getting a visit from the agents.
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cp8759
post Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 12:53
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Also don't forget, if the value of the debt exceeds the value of the car, once they've sold the car, they will still come after you for the balance.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Bailiff Advice
post Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 16:31
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QUOTE (Dontgiveup2010 @ Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 19:38) *
The police gave me details of the company who towed the car, so I immediately phoned their 24 hrs number.

LN Recovery (towing service) confirmed they towed my car to their impound but were unable to explain why and provided me with details for Marstons Group who were delaing with debt.

I phoned Marstons Group this morning and they explained that they were managing a debt on behalf of Barnet Council for an alleged 'prohibited turn' offence I committed in June 2018.

The problem is, any letters or PCN notices were sent to my last known fixed address which I no longer reside at and I've been staying with different friends/family ever since.

Barnet gave me a couple of options:

1) Pay the full amount which essentially is admitting liability
2) Appeal with the Traffic Enforcement Team (T7) but a decision on the appeal could take upto 56 days with the risk of additional costs being added, should I lose.

Any advice will gratefully appreciated


I would strongly urge you to take steps to get the car released from the pound and I would take little notice of the advice given to you by Barnet that paying is admitting liability. They are wrong. You are essentially paying to stop your car from being sold and to bring daily storage fees to an end.

Once you have possession of your car, you can then explore whether or not to submit an Out of Time Statutory Declaration (Forms PE2 and PE3). One step at a time.
Bailiff Advice Online

This post has been edited by Bailiff Advice: Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 16:32
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Neil B
post Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 17:16
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I wouldn't worry yourselves too much.
The person seeking -
QUOTE (Dontgiveup2010 @ Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 19:38) *
urgent help please.

Hasn't looked back since initially posting.

Admittedly, not a day yet but a day is £40.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Dontgiveup2010
post Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 12:12
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Hello all,

Apologies for the delay replying, I've been awfully stressed and busy researching up on the matter.

I really appreciate everyone's advice and will try and answer each reply in turn:

PASTMYBEST

My understanding is that if I pay the full amount £600+ then I'm accepting liability for the whole matter and my chances of recovering any of this money is slim to none. It's also stated on the London Borough's website, that payment is accepting is liability.

PETERGUK

Yes, you are right and I am aware of this.

DVLA's requirments are that you provide an address where you can be 'easily' contacted however, this is not possible in my case as I'm sofa surfing and staying with friends, family as and when they can accomodate me.

I don't have a home (address) and haven't had one since I left my last known address.

I can't provide a family/friends address as 1. It wouldnt be right and they wouldnt be happy about it 2. Even if did, I would not have easy access to any of the mail.

I've spoken with DVLA previously about my circurstances and even they are not sure what to as it's a vey grey area. I mean think about travellers....who have no fixed address.

DVLA recommended I speak with the citizens advice bureau to see if they can provide further advice...just shows they havent got a clue.

Apparently, once upon time you can provide them with a PO address but not anymore.


LNCANDESCENT

I was not living at the address on my V5C when the PCN was issued. I'd moved from there approx 3 months prior to the PCN being issued.

As explained above, DVLA are unable to update their records if I can't provide an address where I'm 'easily' contactable, which I can't.

I was advised of the Statutory Out-of-Time Declaration last week and I was considering it until I heard about the processing times with the Traffic Enforcement Centre.

I was led to believe it could take weeks/months but when I spoke with the Traffic Enforcement Centre today, they advised forms would be processed the same day (if received before 4pm) and they would advise the local authority the following day to suspend (HOLD) any further baliff action.

This is the route i'm most probably going to pursue.....THOUGHTS?

NEILB

I completely agree, payment is not accepting liability.

Hopefully I've answered your V5C point in the post comments above.

HCANDERSEN

Believe me, I have no quarrels paying a PCN providing it's fair and justified but I don't think it is.

The PCN was issued at an address I NO LONGER reside at and WAS my last known address. I don't have a new address for the reasons mentioned above.

Thanks for the advice regarding the agents.

BALIFF ADVICE

Thanks for the advice. Many of you have confirmed my thoughts that payment is not ACCEPTING LIABILITY.

As you rightly pointed out, I'm being forced to pay to stop my car being sold and additional storgage fees beimg added.

Is there any truth/facts that if I pay, I have little or no chance of getting my money back.


One more thing everyone that I failed to mention in my first post:

The address that the PCN was sent to, is an address the same local authority evicted me from. Barnet evicted from me this address and it is Barnet who issued the PCN, just to be clear. I still have the eviction/possession order which clearly shows that I was evicted from the property at least 3 months PRIOR to the alleged date the PCN was issued.


Surely that alone is enough proof to demonstate I had no knowledge of the PCN.


And in case anyone is wondering why I was evicted, it was simply because the building is being demolised. The council's advice at the time was to stay put until I was officially evicted by the court baliff.







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Neil B
post Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 12:43
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A lot of words, no action.

Again, you need to recover the vehicle asap.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Bailiff Advice
post Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 13:21
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QUOTE (Dontgiveup2010 @ Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 12:12) *
Hello all,

Apologies for the delay replying, I've been awfully stressed and busy researching up on the matter.

LNCANDESCENT

I was not living at the address on my V5C when the PCN was issued. I'd moved from there approx 3 months prior to the PCN being issued.

As explained above, DVLA are unable to update their records if I can't provide an address where I'm 'easily' contactable, which I can't.

I was advised of the Statutory Out-of-Time Declaration last week and I was considering it until I heard about the processing times with the Traffic Enforcement Centre.

I was led to believe it could take weeks/months but when I spoke with the Traffic Enforcement Centre today, they advised forms would be processed the same day (if received before 4pm) and they would advise the local authority the following day to suspend (HOLD) any further baliff action.

This is the route i'm most probably going to pursue.....THOUGHTS?


In your case, such an application is fraught with difficulties. In the first instance, you will be required to provide on the forms a current address where the Traffic Enforcement Centre can write to with their decision.

Secondly, the advice given about the time frame for an OOT (weeks/months) is correct I'm afraid.

You appear to be mistaken by the advice given to you by the Traffic Enforcement Centre. As long as your SWORN OOT Stat Dec forms reach the Traffic Enforcement Centre by 4pm they will merely by PROCESSED that day. What this means is that they will be recorded on the TEC computer system and an email will be sent to the relevant local authority advising them of the application. The email will also inform the council etc of their obligation to inform their relevant bailiff provider to place a temporary 'hold' on enforcement whilst a decision is reached on the application itself. Bailiff enforcement is NOT placed on hold at 4pm. It is usually the case that the instruction from the local authority will arrive early the following weekday morning.

The local authority are informed that they have 19 BUSINESS DAYS (one month) in which to decide whether or not to accept the Out of Time application. It is usually the case that TEC will take approx. 2 WEEKS before writing to the motorist to let him know the decision.



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peterguk
post Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 13:50
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QUOTE (Dontgiveup2010 @ Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 12:12) *
The address that the PCN was sent to, is an address the same local authority evicted me from. Barnet evicted from me this address and it is Barnet who issued the PCN, just to be clear. I still have the eviction/possession order which clearly shows that I was evicted from the property at least 3 months PRIOR to the alleged date the PCN was issued.

In accordence with the rules, the LA will access the DVLA database for RK details, and those details are used for the PCN. They are not permitted to do anything else. They don't go hunting to find out if that address is valid. The validity of the address is down to the RK - no one else.
If you unable to comply with the law with regards to DVLA, then maybe you should not be the RK of a motor vehicle...?

This post has been edited by peterguk: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 13:56


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Dontgiveup2010
post Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 13:56
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NEIL B - I appreciate the advice and believe I will pay to have my vehicle returned but I don't want to pay £650 odd quid if there is little or no chance of getting my money back.

Baliff Advice - Say I file the OOT forms and get them sent over to the TEC before 4pm tomorrow. Are you saying that Wednesday (20/03/19) is the likely day the baliff will be informed to put a HOLD pending a decision on my application?

Whilst it's on HOLD, I can't accrue any further costs, right?

BALIFFADVICE - should I do what NEILB is recommending and pay? Im happy to pay providing I can still contest that I didn't receive the PCN.
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Dontgiveup2010
post Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 14:07
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 13:50) *
QUOTE (Dontgiveup2010 @ Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 12:12) *
The address that the PCN was sent to, is an address the same local authority evicted me from. Barnet evicted from me this address and it is Barnet who issued the PCN, just to be clear. I still have the eviction/possession order which clearly shows that I was evicted from the property at least 3 months PRIOR to the alleged date the PCN was issued.

In accordence with the rules, the LA will access the DVLA database for RK details, and those details are used for the PCN. They are not permitted to do anything else. They don't go hunting to find out if that address is valid. The validity of the address is down to the RK - no one else.
If you unable to comply with the law with regards to DVLA, then maybe you should not be the RK of a motor vehicle...?


Hi Peter,

I see your point and it's something I'm fully aware of.

Surely it makes more sense for DVLA to have an email address and or contact number for people like me with no fixed abode? At least that way, I can be easily contactable and the onus should be on me to keep my email and phone number upto date.

Some law's are created and won't be changed to screw us over.
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stamfordman
post Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 14:26
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QUOTE (Dontgiveup2010 @ Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 14:07) *
Surely it makes more sense for DVLA to have an email address and or contact number for people like me with no fixed abode? At least that way, I can be easily contactable and the onus should be on me to keep my email and phone number upto date.


It's a good point and one I've made, but we are where we are.

How much is the car worth? You'll probably lose as much by letting them dispose of it.

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Dontgiveup2010
post Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 14:36
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I paid just over 4k for it nearly two years ago.

Think it's currently valued at 2.4k trade value but I only recent had the clutch done which was a very expensive repair, so no chance of letting the car go.

I'm really considering paying the baliff's tomorrow to avoid any further charges and the risk of the car being sold but it would be useful to know if i still have reasonable grounds to contest the fact I never received the PCN - surely the court eviction notice would pass that test.

As for the DVLA side and updating address details, that area is very grey and even the DVLA can't give me an answer.

It would also be useful to know if there is anything I should be asking specifically from the baliffs i.e. records/receipts, if I do decide to pay them tomorrow.

Naturally, I'll be asking for a receipt but is there anything else I could ask for that may help when contesting.

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stamfordman
post Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 15:13
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Go get the car. Filing an out of time declaration is free but you're throwing money away if you want the car back.
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Neil B
post Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 16:41
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QUOTE (Dontgiveup2010 @ Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 13:56) *
NEIL B - I appreciate the advice and believe I will pay to have my vehicle returned but I don't want to pay £650 odd quid if there is little or no chance of getting my money back.

£650? It's considerably more than that already isn't it?

Why?
No alternative. By the time the bailiff gets around to selling your car the debt will be much greater.
Coupled with, at auction, unlikely to realise anywhere near true value.
I think you'd be lucky to get more than a few hundred quid surplus back, if anything - and have no car.

vs

Pay, circa £850?, still own a car worth circa £2.5k, that you've recently spent a lot of money on and be debt free.

Even if you then couldn't recover the £850 odd which of the above appeals most?

With everyone advising the same I'm surprised you didn't do the obvious maths.

---

Talk about OOT next. Don't go off half cocked.
Because the other advantage to recovery is that you have all the time you need to put together a
tangible OOT application -- but not without help.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 16:47


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
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Dontgiveup2010
post Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 16:53
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Thanks all.

I'll get the car back first thing tomorrow.

Storage is £18 a day but they agreed to waive of the storage fee for Friday due to some confusion.

So i'll have to pay for the Saturday and today Monday - not sure about Sunday as the impound yard is closed on Sunday.

Probably looking at around £690 now.

So just to be clear, are you saying I can still file the OOT forms even if I've paid ???




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