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Section 59 hand delivered 2 months after supposed offence., S59 to be fight.
l1am.why
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 00:36
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Tonight a van full of police arrived at my door to tell me I was being issued an s59 for "revving and backfiring" in a car park in the middle of January.
Naturally I wasn't happy and asked if there was proof. They said they didn't need proof but that a plain clothes sergeant had recorded my number plate as revving at the time and ANPR had picked me up going in and out of the car park. Asked why it had taken 2 months they had no explanation.
Also stated the 12 months starts from today not date of offence.
After working out the night in question I had arranged to meet 2 friends at a car park in between all of us, usually very quiet, before going elsewhere. On this night there was a car meet taking place. I definitely did not rev, someone I know was there at the meet and did rev a lot has not received an S59. I checked through mutual friends.
I was there maybe 10 minutes talking before we all set off for our evening out. The only thing I can think is my car has quite a loud cold start (but it does this every time you start the car) and it holds the revs quite high for 30 seconds or so.
Standard exhaust, car also "pops and bangs" on over run as standard but certain I didn't do anything other than just drive off. There was no mention of accelerating hard or driving just that it was revving.
Never had one before and I get that on its own it's meaningless but obviously worried that one occurrence of perceived bad behaviour it could be seized.
Is there anything I can do to overturn it?
Will I be pulled over every week now?
Are there time limits or rules about proof because this seems like they said a white car was revving checked the anpr picked my car and that's it final.

Any advice appreciated.
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post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 00:36
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Darkatmosphere
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 09:48
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QUOTE (l1am.why @ Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 00:36) *
Tonight a van full of police arrived at my door to tell me I was being issued an s59 for "revving and backfiring" in a car park in the middle of January.
Naturally I wasn't happy and asked if there was proof. They said they didn't need proof but that a plain clothes sergeant had recorded my number plate as revving at the time and ANPR had picked me up going in and out of the car park. Asked why it had taken 2 months they had no explanation.
Also stated the 12 months starts from today not date of offence.
After working out the night in question I had arranged to meet 2 friends at a car park in between all of us, usually very quiet, before going elsewhere. On this night there was a car meet taking place. I definitely did not rev, someone I know was there at the meet and did rev a lot has not received an S59. I checked through mutual friends.
I was there maybe 10 minutes talking before we all set off for our evening out. The only thing I can think is my car has quite a loud cold start (but it does this every time you start the car) and it holds the revs quite high for 30 seconds or so.
Standard exhaust, car also "pops and bangs" on over run as standard but certain I didn't do anything other than just drive off. There was no mention of accelerating hard or driving just that it was revving.
Never had one before and I get that on its own it's meaningless but obviously worried that one occurrence of perceived bad behaviour it could be seized.
Is there anything I can do to overturn it?
Will I be pulled over every week now?
Are there time limits or rules about proof because this seems like they said a white car was revving checked the anpr picked my car and that's it final.

Any advice appreciated.

Is there anything I can do to overturn it?-Possibly

Will I be pulled over every week now? -No.

Are there time limits or rules about proof because this seems like they said a white car was revving checked the anpr picked my car and that's it final-No, like you, said a Plain clothes ranked constable on duty or off duty was at the scene of the incident, he probably got up close and personal to the incident without you realising that's pretty high bar to disrepute.

Police don't have to disclose any evidence they have against your car being driven in an anti social manor, Its probable that said plain clothed ranked officer has video, is prepared to make any sworn statement of the incident, and probably has CCTV from the car park.

If you think the Ranked Constable is mistaken, then you can write to the station and inform of this mistake and offer up the driver details and vehicle details of the person who did do it as you know who it was, and perhaps they may waive your S.59, but if these details are knowingly false and you give them, you could face harsher penalties for perverting the course of justice which means a possible prison sentence.


What force area is this?

If the letter doesn't bare any fruit, then you could look at the possibility of a judicial review, this will cost you money and there Is no guaranteed outcome. But a politely worded letter the chief at the force area station where your S59 was issued may be all it takes.

I suggests you avoid, all meet ups, don't rev your car intentionally or accidentally to make it pop and bang to cause a member of the public alarm or distress, don't drive in an aggressive manor for the time being.

This post has been edited by Darkatmosphere: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 09:49


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Logician
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 10:53
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So you just happened to meet friends where a car meet was taking place and there just happened to be another friend there taking part and unfortunately your car just happens to be very loud on a cold start (A cold start after 10 minutes?) and then decides to rev itself, also it pops and bangs on the overrun as standard (how very strange on a standard car) but you are certain you simply drove off (so presumably there would be no overrun?). Would this also happen to be an area where there are regular car meets and/or within an area where the local council have got a court order in place to tackle the nuisance of car meets?

I think you have little chance of getting the s.59 overturned and your best course of action is to do what you can to prevent these unfortunate coincidences happening again. I do not think you will be targeted or pulled over and nothing more will happen provided you to avoid being at car meets when the police might get the unfortunate impression that you are attending them, or at any rate calling in to see what is going on and who is there.



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The Rookie
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 11:05
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QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 10:53) *
also it pops and bangs on the overrun as standard (how very strange on a standard car)

Actually not at all strange on sporty models, I remember us calibrating it in at managements request on Mini Cooper S back in 2002. Entry parameter was a reasonable load and revs and a very fast lift off though.
Audi S3 and RS3 and Golf GTI as well as Focus RS all do it, I’m sure there are others.


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Dwain
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 12:19
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My M4 is downright offensive in sport mode, god only knows what aftermarket exhausts sound like smile.gif BTW, mine is bog standard, not even a competition model.
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peterguk
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 15:14
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Not that whether the car is standard or modified has anything to do with the awarding of a S.59.


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Logician
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 15:56
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 11:05) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 10:53) *
also it pops and bangs on the overrun as standard (how very strange on a standard car)
Actually not at all strange on sporty models, I remember us calibrating it in at managements request on Mini Cooper S back in 2002. Entry parameter was a reasonable load and revs and a very fast lift off though. Audi S3 and RS3 and Golf GTI as well as Focus RS all do it, I’m sure there are others.


Really, I had a 1947 MG that did it most impressively, but only because some idiot had bolted in aftermarket flow straighteners between the SUs and the manifold, distorting the flanges of the SUs in the process. When I corrected that it was then possible to get the mixture correct and it never did it again.



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NewJudge
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 16:38
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There's clearly something wrong in their design, then because there is no need for any road car to do that. The last time I heard it (apart from yesterday when some little twerp drove down my local High Street in a Corsa that had obviously had half its exhaust system removed) was at a stock car meeting at Harringay Stadium (which shows how long ago it was). Those cars had V8 engines with just two short downpipes, one from each manifold. I'm surprised the cars mentioned achieved type approval if they sound like that without modification.

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 16:39
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peterguk
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 17:24
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 16:38) *
There's clearly something wrong in their design, then because there is no need for any road car to do that.


It's called marketing. Makes the car attractive to the lads with money.


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l1am.why
post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 12:15
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Ok to clarify, this car park is widely used a meet point, large car park with a restaurant and playing fields, it is a coach pickup point, the place all local schools use to collect / drop off kids, paramedics sit and wait on duty etc. It is directly next to a main road and about 200m from the dual carriageway to the m25.

In answer to some of the other points, as mentioned pretty much any "sporty" car since 2010 pops / bangs etc. Mine is a BMW M performance model. My car also (as already stated) cold starts on every start. When it is genuinely cold it does it for maybe a minute, when it is warm it does this for 30 seconds. If your only point of reference for a car popping is a 70 year old MG then you must have been living under a rock.

I knew several people there, I didn't talk to them, and yes this was the first time I have ever seen an actual car meet taking place in this car park.

I will write a letter to the local force complaints office and see if I can get anywhere. I have been driving for 10 years and not had anything like this, but am concerned that having 1 might make it easier to get a 2nd.

After asking around, I found someone else received an S59 from the same night, they were issued it 3 days after the event.
There were at least 2 other cars same model and colour as mine.

My main issue is, being issued this 2 months later does not seem like they have me "bang to rights" and I will not be a scapegoat for a box ticking exercise by the police.
Also the lack of evidence or appeal process, doesn't exactly reflect innocent until proven guilty and feels rather open to abuse.

I also know that I did not rev my car, i wasn't drawing a crowd or trying to get the approval of the car meet. Simply 3 couples met up here and went to a pub.
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peterguk
post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 12:18
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QUOTE (l1am.why @ Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 12:15) *
Ok to clarify, this car park is widely used a meet point, large car park with a restaurant and playing fields, it is a coach pickup point, the place all local schools use to collect / drop off kids, paramedics sit and wait on duty etc. It is directly next to a main road and about 200m from the dual carriageway to the m25.

In answer to some of the other points, as mentioned pretty much any "sporty" car since 2010 pops / bangs etc. Mine is a BMW M performance model. My car also (as already stated) cold starts on every start. When it is genuinely cold it does it for maybe a minute, when it is warm it does this for 30 seconds. If your only point of reference for a car popping is a 70 year old MG then you must have been living under a rock.

I knew several people there, I didn't talk to them, and yes this was the first time I have ever seen an actual car meet taking place in this car park.

I will write a letter to the local force complaints office and see if I can get anywhere. I have been driving for 10 years and not had anything like this, but am concerned that having 1 might make it easier to get a 2nd.

After asking around, I found someone else received an S59 from the same night, they were issued it 3 days after the event.
There were at least 2 other cars same model and colour as mine.

My main issue is, being issued this 2 months later does not seem like they have me "bang to rights" and I will not be a scapegoat for a box ticking exercise by the police.
Also the lack of evidence or appeal process, doesn't exactly reflect innocent until proven guilty and feels rather open to abuse.

I also know that I did not rev my car, i wasn't drawing a crowd or trying to get the approval of the car meet. Simply 3 couples met up here and went to a pub.


So you can write a letter and see what happens. Without very deep pockets that's all you can do.


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Logician
post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 18:00
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My BMW M140 does not pop and bang, not did my previous two M models. If yours holds the revs high on start up, it suggests there is unwanted air getting into the fuel mixture, as there was with my old MG. Time to get a BMW specialist to take a look at it.


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Starworshipper12
post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 18:05
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We have a Golf R, and despite the horsepower it’s fairly quiet... am I missing something here??
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NewJudge
post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 18:19
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QUOTE (Starworshipper12 @ Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 18:05) *
am I missing something here??

Probably not as much as some of the exhaust systems mentioned here are! cool.gif
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Slapdash
post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 18:24
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QUOTE (Logician @ Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 18:00) *
My BMW M140 does not pop and bang, not did my previous two M models. If yours holds the revs high on start up, it suggests there is unwanted air getting into the fuel mixture, as there was with my old MG. Time to get a BMW specialist to take a look at it.


The B58 in the M140 is quieter cold start than the N55 it replaced (newer ones with PPF are quieter still).

My N55 powered M135 will hold 1400 rpm for a few seconds on cold start. As the RPM is then dropped to idle there is a very slight crackle.

It is by no stretch of the imagination loud.

Obviously with appropriate operator input I can make it antisocial.

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Darkatmosphere
post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 19:55
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QUOTE (l1am.why @ Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 12:15) *
Ok to clarify, this car park is widely used a meet point, large car park with a restaurant and playing fields, it is a coach pickup point, the place all local schools use to collect / drop off kids, paramedics sit and wait on duty etc. It is directly next to a main road and about 200m from the dual carriageway to the m25.

In answer to some of the other points, as mentioned pretty much any "sporty" car since 2010 pops / bangs etc. Mine is a BMW M performance model. My car also (as already stated) cold starts on every start. When it is genuinely cold it does it for maybe a minute, when it is warm it does this for 30 seconds. If your only point of reference for a car popping is a 70 year old MG then you must have been living under a rock.

I knew several people there, I didn't talk to them, and yes this was the first time I have ever seen an actual car meet taking place in this car park.

I will write a letter to the local force complaints office and see if I can get anywhere. I have been driving for 10 years and not had anything like this, but am concerned that having 1 might make it easier to get a 2nd.

After asking around, I found someone else received an S59 from the same night, they were issued it 3 days after the event.
There were at least 2 other cars same model and colour as mine.

My main issue is, being issued this 2 months later does not seem like they have me "bang to rights" and I will not be a scapegoat for a box ticking exercise by the police.
Also the lack of evidence or appeal process, doesn't exactly reflect innocent until proven guilty and feels rather open to abuse.

I also know that I did not rev my car, i wasn't drawing a crowd or trying to get the approval of the car meet. Simply 3 couples met up here and went to a pub.

I think it is important you understand the guidance of the reform act: Section 59 of the Act is a common tool used by police constables and police community support officers (PCSOs) to seize vehicles being used in an anti-social manner. Vehicles can be seized if the police officer / PCSO reasonably believes that a mechanically propelled vehicle is being used in a manner:[1]
causing, or likely to cause alarm, distress or annoyance to the public
And the usual inconsiderate or careless driving and contravening section 34 (prohibition of off-road driving/driving other than a road) of the Road Traffic Act 1988.

You have to take into account the "reasonable believes is LIKELY to cause alarm or distress or annoyance" bit as this is the main talking point.

From the point of view of member of the public who lawfully use the carpark, and the enjoyment of the facilities, and also the tenants who earn money from that outlet who don't want this negative type of behaviour on their on their doorstep, a car meet can be "loud and intimidating and frightening and annoying to general members of the public" with loud music, loud exhausts, swearing, revving of engines, littering, wheel spinning its easy to see why none of this would be wanted.
So police target these meets, and unfortunately a degree of stereo typing also get thrown into the mix, you have to look at it from their perspective, there's cars parked up revving, loud music, etc, you decide to leave so your cars "pops and bangs" on cold start up, you automatically become part of the anti social situation albeit "unintentionally" whilst leaving so your registration was noted and as you left they could talk to you onsite they chased you up when the opportunity arose, from the perspective of the constable you say was present, you were part of the group, he did not know you intentions for being there, he did not know you reason for being there, as you drive an M sport that along with the other cars popping and banging was yours when it was leaving (and a bit of stereotyping young lad in a M sport) so he had reason to believe it was being driven in a antisocial manor.

You now have to convince the police that you were not causing someone alarm and distress or annoyance to the persons or person around you, and ask them is reasonable to issue it 3 month post alleged incident and have the S59 run from the date it was handed to you, because if it was handed to you in a timely manor it would ended in line with the date offence, it also didn't afford you reasonable time to remember the incident as fresh as it would have been say 2-4 weeks post incident.

You also do not know the level of evidence, as I said they do not have to provide it, you have to ask "why would a plain clothed officer be there" and if her was there "would he be recording the incident with covert worn camera" and "if off duty had recorded it on his phone", so you should approach this as If they have a high degree of physical evidence too it would be ignorant to assume they don't.

You have a mountain to climb, but I would make sure I am 110% squeaky clean and sure of my actions on that day was legit and straight before writing to them claiming to be innocent, only to have evidence against you to the contrary and you end up with proceeding for perverting course of justice.

There has been success stories on here of over turned S.59's with a letter, so its not impossible police seem to be reasonable.



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notmeatloaf
post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 23:28
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If your car cold start is noisy enough for you to think it would have been noticed at a car meet starting warm, then maybe take it to a garage and get them to write a report as to whether it is normal.

If so write to the police with a copy of the report and explain that your car as stock is very loud at start up and you think the officer may be mistake.

FWIW as others have said I think it is very bad luck if you were parked away from a car meet and a police officer still singled you out. If you were parked with the car meet, with a loud/powerful car, then you are making a rod for your own back.

It has probably been over fifteen years since I had a "may upset the neighbours in the mornings" car. I thought they had stopped making them as stock.
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