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Tow legal for residential area?
supa
post Tue, 12 Mar 2019 - 21:20
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My dad was visiting overnight and parked in a residential parking bay which requires a permit 10am-2pm (in Canning town). We completely forgot to put the guest permit on his dashboard in the morning at 10 am, and didn't remember until around 12pm by which time we saw it had already been towed away.

Is it legal for them to tow? I thought he would have just got a PCN ticket but had to pay the £200 tow fee too (£265 total). It was properly parked in the bay and wasn't obstructing anything.
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post Tue, 12 Mar 2019 - 21:20
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supa
post Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 14:49
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 13:15) *
Their website is irrelevant.

What someone might or might not have said in the context of an unknown question similarly.

All that counts is the documents given to you when you recovered your vehicle, 11(2) and 11(3) apply:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...ulation/11/made


I'll ask him what they said to him regarding appeals, but I think what he gave to me is all the paper work (I'll double check) so I think they must have told him orally.

Are you saying if they didn't mention it in writing or orally that would also be grounds for appeal?
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 15:29
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QUOTE (supa @ Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 14:49) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 13:15) *
Their website is irrelevant.

What someone might or might not have said in the context of an unknown question similarly.

All that counts is the documents given to you when you recovered your vehicle, 11(2) and 11(3) apply:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...ulation/11/made


I'll ask him what they said to him regarding appeals, but I think what he gave to me is all the paper work (I'll double check) so I think they must have told him orally.

Are you saying if they didn't mention it in writing or orally that would also be grounds for appeal?


See 11(3) of the link posted by HCA it must be in writing


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cp8759
post Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 22:30
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 10:47) *
At 10.00am you were parked legally so the law requires a 10 minute grace period is given before a PCN can be served so any time from 10.10.01 til 10.10.59 is still within that period

I have to disagree, the legislation says "No penalty charge is payable for the contravention where the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period for a period not exceeding 10 minutes."

The vehicle was parked lawfully at 10:00:00 and a period of ten minutes elapsed at 10:10:00, so at 10:10:01 a PCN could be issued. However the argument should still be made, as the council has helpfully neglected to put the seconds on the PCN, so there's no way of knowing if the PCN was issued at 10:10:00 or at 10:10:01 or later, and where this is impossible to determine, the interpretation most favourable to the motorist should be applied (of course the obvious rebuttal is that it's more likely than not that the PCN was issued between 10:10:01 and 10:10:59 rather than at 10:10:00, but I doubt the council will even think of that).

QUOTE (supa @ Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 14:49) *
I'll ask him what they said to him regarding appeals, but I think what he gave to me is all the paper work (I'll double check) so I think they must have told him orally.

Are you saying if they didn't mention it in writing or orally that would also be grounds for appeal?

Well the vehicle removal receipt is mostly obscured by the PCN (you really show show us the documents in full, redacting just personal details), but there is obviously something about appeals mentioned:



I suspect information about how to appeal may well be on the back of the form.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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supa
post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 16:24
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 22:30) *
The vehicle was parked lawfully at 10:00:00 and a period of ten minutes elapsed at 10:10:00, so at 10:10:01 a PCN could be issued. However the argument should still be made, as the council has helpfully neglected to put the seconds on the PCN, so there's no way of knowing if the PCN was issued at 10:10:00 or at 10:10:01 or later, and where this is impossible to determine, the interpretation most favourable to the motorist should be applied (of course the obvious rebuttal is that it's more likely than not that the PCN was issued between 10:10:01 and 10:10:59 rather than at 10:10:00, but I doubt the council will even think of that).


The reverse of the 'vehicle release receipt' is purely data protection, I read it carefully. It mentions nothing of appeals. The back of the PCN does, I've included it and the part I've covered up is all purely personal details, carefully checked to not contain anything other.

Not sure how to start drafting the appeal letter, never done anything like this. Do I have to state I am also appealing against the PCN based on the seconds technicality? I have to wait for my dad to receive the pics in the post, I'll use the final draft approved by yourselves (thank you so much) and will email it to him to send with the pictures in the post back to newham (ensuring they scan the pics and email to me too).

Would my dad have to appear in person at any point, like if it goes to the Tribunal?

This post has been edited by supa: Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 16:26
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 17:06
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The representation will have to be made by dad. You can do it with his written authority.

Make representations on all points ( you really should post all documents, not just tell us what they say)

No he will not have to attend a hearing, it is often better if you do, but this will be an appeal on points of law and technicalities so on the papers should suffice. But dont send anything without review here first


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supa
post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 19:27
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 17:06) *
The representation will have to be made by dad. You can do it with his written authority.

Make representations on all points ( you really should post all documents, not just tell us what they say)

No he will not have to attend a hearing, it is often better if you do, but this will be an appeal on points of law and technicalities so on the papers should suffice. But dont send anything without review here first

There is the receipt (only the personal data is covered up nothing else) so I also posted it, and there aren't any more docs. I will email the letter to my dad and he'll send it, is that what you mean by representation? Do I have to get him to say I helped with the letter?
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 19:33
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QUOTE (supa @ Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 19:27) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 17:06) *
The representation will have to be made by dad. You can do it with his written authority.

Make representations on all points ( you really should post all documents, not just tell us what they say)

No he will not have to attend a hearing, it is often better if you do, but this will be an appeal on points of law and technicalities so on the papers should suffice. But dont send anything without review here first

There is the receipt (only the personal data is covered up nothing else) so I also posted it, and there aren't any more docs. I will email the letter to my dad and he'll send it, is that what you mean by representation? Do I have to get him to say I helped with the letter?


As long as it is signed by dad that's fine


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cp8759
post Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 12:23
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QUOTE (supa @ Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 16:24) *
The reverse of the 'vehicle release receipt' is purely data protection, I read it carefully. It mentions nothing of appeals. The back of the PCN does, I've included it and the part I've covered up is all purely personal details, carefully checked to not contain anything other.

Show us the front, redacting personal details only. In particular I'd like to see the rest of the text where it mentions "...been advised of my right to appeal against...".


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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supa
post Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 13:36
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 12:23) *
QUOTE (supa @ Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 16:24) *
The reverse of the 'vehicle release receipt' is purely data protection, I read it carefully. It mentions nothing of appeals. The back of the PCN does, I've included it and the part I've covered up is all purely personal details, carefully checked to not contain anything other.

Show us the front, redacting personal details only. In particular I'd like to see the rest of the text where it mentions "...been advised of my right to appeal against...".


I've now posted the data protection and I also posted the 'vehicle release' again showing that section yesterday but didn't realise it doesn't show the doc name on the thumbnail so I tried posting it here again so you can identify it (only personal details are covered up) ninja.gif failed for some reason, if you look at my post (yesterday 16:34) it's there
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hcandersen
post Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 20:39
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The regs do not refer to service or issuing of a PCN ( although erroneously the Explanatory Note does). The wording is clear:

No penalty charge is payable for the contravention where the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period for a period not exceeding 10 minutes.


The wording of the Schedule is similarly clear in that a PCN must state:

d)the date and the time at which the alleged contravention occurred;
e)the grounds on which the civil enforcement officer serving the notice believes that a penalty charge is payable;


It therefore follows without further analysis or going into 'seconds' that no penalty charge was payable at the time alleged by the authority. IMO, (d) and (e) must be read together, as is stated on the PCN, the effect of which is that, as it states, the CEO 'had reason to believe that a penalty is payable'. The problem is that at the time stated 10.10 (IMO it is irrelevant for these purposes that the notebook may say something else, this issue is contained within the PCN) by law a penalty was not payable.
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supa
post Sun, 17 Mar 2019 - 08:09
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 20:39) *
The regs do not refer to service or issuing of a PCN ( although erroneously the Explanatory Note does). The wording is clear:

No penalty charge is payable for the contravention where the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period for a period not exceeding 10 minutes.


The wording of the Schedule is similarly clear in that a PCN must state:

d)the date and the time at which the alleged contravention occurred;
e)the grounds on which the civil enforcement officer serving the notice believes that a penalty charge is payable;


It therefore follows without further analysis or going into 'seconds' that no penalty charge was payable at the time alleged by the authority. IMO, (d) and (e) must be read together, as is stated on the PCN, the effect of which is that, as it states, the CEO 'had reason to believe that a penalty is payable'. The problem is that at the time stated 10.10 (IMO it is irrelevant for these purposes that the notebook may say something else, this issue is contained within the PCN) by law a penalty was not payable.

It's not clear to me lol, do I have to create the first draft myself? It seems to me that you guys are either lawyers or are studying towards it biggrin.gif My degree was in law but I feel completely out of my depth (I went into teaching after, I wasn't particularly good haha!).

Also is it necessary to wait for the pics before drafting the letter, or can we assume they will show there were free bays and just amend after (in the unlikey case that there weren't)?
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hcandersen
post Sun, 17 Mar 2019 - 10:24
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In short:
Were you in contravention? Yes.

Was a penalty payable? No.

Why? Because for that contravention that's what the law provides: no penalty is payable where the vehicle has been left ...for a period not exceeding 10 minutes.

Had your vehicle been left in contravention for more than 10 mnutes when the CEO determined that a penalty was payable? No.

What evidence? The CEO's own i.e. the time on the PCN.



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DancingDad
post Sun, 17 Mar 2019 - 10:43
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I am still not clear so perhaps OP can confirm before any challenge is made.
Did or did not Dad receive a form explaining how rights to challenge when he collected the car ??
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cp8759
post Sun, 17 Mar 2019 - 19:47
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 17 Mar 2019 - 10:43) *
I am still not clear so perhaps OP can confirm before any challenge is made.
Did or did not Dad receive a form explaining how rights to challenge when he collected the car ??

I agree this should be clarified, my concern however is that he signed a form that says "I have been advised of my right to appeal against a parking penalty" and it's going to be tricky to convince the adjudicator that this had not happened.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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cp8759
post Sun, 17 Mar 2019 - 20:17
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Here's a rough draft:

--------------

Dear Sir or Madam,

I contest liability against PCN PN19943358. My vehicle had been lawfully parked prior to 10 am, the CEO first observed my vehicle at 10:04 and a PCN was served at 10:10 am. I draw your attention to regulations 4(2), (3) and (4) of The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007 which provide as follows:

(2) Paragraph (3) applies in relation to a contravention mentioned in subparagraph (a) to (с) of paragraph (1) where a vehicle is stationary in a designated parking place and the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period.

(3) No penalty charge is payable for the contravention where the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period for a period not exceeding 10 minutes.

(4) In this regulation—

(a) “designated parking place” means a parking place established by virtue of an order made under section 1, 6, 9, 32(1)(b), 35 or 45 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984(3);
(b) “permitted parking period” means—
(I) a period of parking that has been paid for as authorised by or under any order made relating to the designated parking place; or
(ii) a period of parking for which no charge is payable as authorised by or under any order made relating to the designated parking place.


The PCN was issued at 10:10 am, when the permitted parking period had not yet exceeded 10 minutes, it follows that no penalty was payable at the time. It follows that the penalty charge and subsequent towing fees must be refunded in full.

Further to this, regulation 11(1) and (2) of The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007 provides that:

11.—(1) This regulation applies to a person where, as respects a vehicle which has been found in a civil enforcement area for parking contraventions and removed under regulations made under section 99 of the 1984 Act—

(a)he is required to pay an amount on recovery of the vehicle under section 101A of that Act;
(b)he receives a sum in respect of the vehicle under section 101A(2) of that Act;
©he is informed that the proceeds of sale of the vehicle did not exceed the aggregate amount mentioned in that provision; or
(d)he is informed that the vehicle was disposed of without there being any proceeds of sale.

(2) A person to whom paragraph (1) applies shall immediately upon the happening of an occurrence referred to in paragraph (1) be informed—

(a) of his right to make representations to the enforcement authority in accordance with this regulation; and
(b) of his right to appeal to an adjudicator if his representations are not accepted,
and that information must include a statement of the effect of paragraphs (4) and (5).


When I collected my vehicle, I was given some paperwork to sign but nothing was explained to me about appeals, I accept the vehicle release form includes the words "I have been advised of my right to appeal against a parking penalty" but in reality I was not advised of any such right verbally, nor was I given any written documentation concerning how I might appeal. This failure to provide information about how the penalty and towing charges may be appealed amount to a procedural impropriety which means the penalty charge must be cancelled.

In light of the above, please would you arrange a full refund to be paid into account 00000000, sort code 00-00-00.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 16:27


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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supa
post Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 12:24
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 17 Mar 2019 - 19:47) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 17 Mar 2019 - 10:43) *
I am still not clear so perhaps OP can confirm before any challenge is made.
Did or did not Dad receive a form explaining how rights to challenge when he collected the car ??

I agree this should be clarified, my concern however is that he signed a form that says "I have been advised of my right to appeal against a parking penalty" and it's going to be tricky to convince the adjudicator that this had not happened.


As far as I'm aware there was no separate form, I've now posted all docs received, including all their reverse sides. I'll ask my dad again just to double check.

EDIT: that's everything, and my dad says he didn't orally say anything at all about appeals.

This post has been edited by supa: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 12:55
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cp8759
post Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 16:27
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QUOTE (supa @ Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 12:24) *
EDIT: that's everything, and my dad says he didn't orally say anything at all about appeals.

I've updated the draft to take this into account. Get it sent off and let's see what they come back with.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 16:28


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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supa
post Yesterday, 18:49
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 17 Mar 2019 - 20:17) *
Here's a rough draft:

--------------

Dear Sir or Madam,

I contest liability against PCN PN19943358. My vehicle had been lawfully parked prior to 10 am, the CEO first observed my vehicle at 10:04 and a PCN was served at 10:10 am. I draw your attention to regulations 4(2), (3) and (4) of The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007 which provide as follows:

Thank you for the draft. My dad's received the photos and it does show a free space in the bay next to his car. I'll now post the pics here once I receive them, I'll wait for the final draft and then email it to my dad and he'll print it out and sign it then post it with the physical pictures.

Edit: Shouldn't we mention the towing being excessive since it was parked properly in a parking bay and there was a free space next to it, thus it not preventing other residents from parking?

It's saying the file is too large so:


https://mega.nz/#!B8xzESpZ!5R8NtEWz...xXW2Gc7i3xPLocE


The pic I 1st linked above is the one showing the free space to the left of my dad's (black) car. These are the rest of the pics:

https://mega.nz/#F!0pxHXayA!DkZWLnHMoKBIF86LjLYgog

This post has been edited by supa: Yesterday, 19:16
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supa
post Today, 10:08
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Anyone? I don't know what the deadline is
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spaceman
post Today, 11:32
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 17 Mar 2019 - 20:17) *
When I collected my vehicle, I was given some paperwork to sign but nothing was explained to me about appeals, I accept the vehicle release form includes the words "I have been advised of my right to appeal against a parking penalty" but in reality I was not advised of any such right verbally, nor was I given any written documentation concerning how I might appeal. T

So why did he sign to say he had then?

Remember, adjudicators are judicial appointees and I can assure you they will totally disregard this comment if it ends up before them.

This post has been edited by spaceman: Today, 11:32
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