PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Tow legal for residential area?
supa
post Tue, 12 Mar 2019 - 21:20
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 22
Joined: 12 Mar 2019
Member No.: 102,890



My dad was visiting overnight and parked in a residential parking bay which requires a permit 10am-2pm (in Canning town). We completely forgot to put the guest permit on his dashboard in the morning at 10 am, and didn't remember until around 12pm by which time we saw it had already been towed away.

Is it legal for them to tow? I thought he would have just got a PCN ticket but had to pay the £200 tow fee too (£265 total). It was properly parked in the bay and wasn't obstructing anything.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
3 Pages V   1 2 3 >  
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Tue, 12 Mar 2019 - 21:20
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
stamfordman
post Tue, 12 Mar 2019 - 21:29
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9,671
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



Post all the docs.
Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.

This is Newham and they tow for low priority cases. They'd tow a child's tricycle if they could make a bob or two.

A factor is the bays - how full were they?

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 - 21:55
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mad Mick V
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 08:17
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 7,226
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Member No.: 11,355



As an aside, there was a Mayoral dictat some years ago that towing from London residential bays was not allowed. That all changed once Boris was ensconced.

I doubt asking this Council to exercise their discretion will lead to the PCN being cancelled.

What are the observation times, PCN time and tow time?

Mick
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 08:44
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,485
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



As far as the authority are concerned, a stranger's car (not one registered with them where slippage had taken place i.e. slipped the owner's mind to display their permit or slipped off the dashboard) was occupying a bay. Permit holders pay the authority to enforce their rights to use and rightly demand action.

And of what direct use to those permit holders is issuing a PCN? None.

The only way legitimate users could benefit is if the vehicle was removed. I would not put removal in these circumstances to the baying masses, I fear the Clapometer might give an answer which you might not expect or like....hanging is too good for them etc...

But this should not be a pass/fail test, other factors should, and with most authorities do, come into play.

What we know is that an unpermitted car was occupying a bay. We don't know when it was removed or when the PCN was issued. And what benefit would derive to other permit holders if in these circumstances the car wasn't towed before the end of the restriction?

In short...more facts pl.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
supa
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 14:43
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 22
Joined: 12 Mar 2019
Member No.: 102,890



Thanks for the replies. Parking requires a permit 10am-2pm My dad has left now so I don't have any documents at the moment, I can ask for them soon hopefully. The PCN was issued around 11am (from checking the newham site they had a link where I put registration in) but we didn't realise until after 12.30pm at which point the car was gone so we have no pics.

The strange thing is the bays are very empty during the day, no other cars (maybe 1 or 2) which is why I don't understand that it's legal to take such drastic measures. It's a tiny road which can be walked through in 2 minutes and my dad's car wasn't obstructing anything. Do I have any grounds to appeal?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 15:11
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9,671
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



You need to post the documents.

Also give us a google street view link. See if Newham's pics are still on their site - you will be needing these.

While there may be no grounds for appealing the PCN, you can pursue the tow especially if they towed from mostly deserted resident bays. You have nothing to lose except time.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
supa
post Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 10:11
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 22
Joined: 12 Mar 2019
Member No.: 102,890



I got the Docs. It's offence 12.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.520816,0.01...6384!8i8192

The car was parked in the right-most bay. PCN at 10:10am and tow at 11:15am. But I didn't see any pictures of the incident on the newham site? I clicked on the link to verify they had the car (by entering the reg). Do you have a link for where the pics would be?
Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
John U.K.
post Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 10:19
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,356
Joined: 9 May 2014
Member No.: 70,515



QUOTE
But I didn't see any pictures of the incident on the newham site? I clicked on the link to verify they had the car (by entering the reg). Do you have a link for where the pics would be?


Because you had to pay the PCN to release the car most, if not all, council parking depts remove the pictures on payment. You will have to ask Newham, by telephone or in writing.
If writing, make it clear this is a request, not a representation
"In order that I may consider my options in responding to the above PCN and subsequent removal,, please sent me copies the CEO's photographs . . ."
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Incandescent
post Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 10:26
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,788
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



It is a no-brainer to take this to London Tribunals as you have already paid all there is to pay. I would appeal on disproportionate action in towing away the vehicle. The statutory ground for this would be "the penalty exceeded the relevant amount in the circumstances of the case". The circumstances being what you have described, namely most of the bays empty at the time of tow. I don't think you can argue against the PCN itself.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
supa
post Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 10:27
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 22
Joined: 12 Mar 2019
Member No.: 102,890



QUOTE (John U.K. @ Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 10:19) *
QUOTE
But I didn't see any pictures of the incident on the newham site? I clicked on the link to verify they had the car (by entering the reg). Do you have a link for where the pics would be?


Because you had to pay the PCN to release the car most, if not all, council parking depts remove the pictures on payment. You will have to ask Newham, by telephone or in writing.
If writing, make it clear this is a request, not a representation
"In order that I may consider my options in responding to the above PCN and subsequent removal,, please sent me copies the CEO's photographs . . ."



Where would I have found the pics before payment, out of curiosity?

Would you know which email address to send it to? The newham site doesn't even say how to appeal, there is no link or form at all on the clamping and removals site:

https://www.newham.gov.uk/Pages/Services/Cl...d-removals.aspx

This post has been edited by supa: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 10:29
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 10:30
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 15,576
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



for a restriction that starts at 10.00am a PCN at 10.10 am is to early, the grace period applies until the end of the 10 minute period so the cannot issue a PCN until 10.11am


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
supa
post Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 10:34
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 22
Joined: 12 Mar 2019
Member No.: 102,890



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 10:30) *
for a restriction that starts at 10.00am a PCN at 10.10 am is to early, the grace period applies until the end of the 10 minute period so the cannot issue a PCN until 10.11am


observation time was 10.04am so that means he couldn't issue til 10.14am?

Edit: I see what you're saying, from 10am lol

Would that be sufficient grounds to challenge pcn?

This post has been edited by supa: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 10:37
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
John U.K.
post Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 10:45
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,356
Joined: 9 May 2014
Member No.: 70,515



QUOTE
I got the Docs.


You need to post separately all sides of all documents received at the pound. There should have been some guidance as to making reps.

Try this:

Do not attach docs/photos, but use this method:

Photo or scan. see http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=36858&st=0
for how to do it. I use Tinypic for stage 2 with no problems. Thera are other sites, such as Flickr (where the BBcodes are concealed behind the curly arrow (click on it) for sharing), https://imgbb.com/ (highly recommended by Stamfordman) and imgur, which enable you to paste the BBCodes into your post here.
STAGE 1 takes care of resizing. If you use Tinypic for Stage 2, on the left each image in Tinypic is a list of links. Highlight and copy the entire link 'for forums' from the list for each image - beginning with IMG and ending /IMG (include all the square brackets [ ] ), and paste each link into your post. Each copied and pasted link will embed a thumbnail link in your post.

Using the attachment method is not advised as it means quickly running out of attachment space.

Redact/obscure name, address, PCN number and reg.mark.
LEAVE IN all dates/times; precise location, Contravention code and description.

This post has been edited by John U.K.: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 10:46
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 10:47
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 15,576
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (supa @ Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 10:34) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 10:30) *
for a restriction that starts at 10.00am a PCN at 10.10 am is to early, the grace period applies until the end of the 10 minute period so the cannot issue a PCN until 10.11am


observation time was 10.04am so that means he couldn't issue til 10.14am?

Edit: I see what you're saying, from 10am lol

Would that be sufficient grounds to challenge pcn?


At 10.00am you were parked legally so the law requires a 10 minute grace period is given before a PCN can be served so any time from 10.10.01 til 10.10.59 is still within that period


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
supa
post Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 11:19
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 22
Joined: 12 Mar 2019
Member No.: 102,890



QUOTE (John U.K. @ Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 10:45) *
QUOTE
I got the Docs.


You need to post separately all sides of all documents received at the pound. There should have been some guidance as to making reps.


But all the relevant info was included and I covered up only the details you mentioned. The reverse of the receipt is blank and the other 2 have data protection. it does say important info so I could scan that one?

What can I do about reg/pcn number I included by accident, should I re-do the scan and edit the image? I'm not used to redaction and other stuff on forums so the instructions are a bit confusing, I usually just scan stuff

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 11:25
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9,671
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



no one's bothered about the PCN or reg nos.

You have two grounds so far - the 10 min grace rule and no compelling need to tow. The council pics will be useful for the second possibly so contact Newham and ask for them to get the ball rolling - they may not supply them until they respond to your appeal though, but if they reject you'll still have the tribunal.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
supa
post Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 11:53
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 22
Joined: 12 Mar 2019
Member No.: 102,890



QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 11:25) *
no one's bothered about the PCN or reg nos.

You have two grounds so far - the 10 min grace rule and no compelling need to tow. The council pics will be useful for the second possibly so contact Newham and ask for them to get the ball rolling - they may not supply them until they respond to your appeal though, but if they reject you'll still have the tribunal.


When you say get the ball rolling, you mean appeal to the council? I thought because I payed the PCN I couldn't do that, but having got off the phone to them they said I can do that (I told them I plan on doing so). They said the 14 day limit (for appealing) isn't important as it is more about the pcn increasing in price which I already paid. (It came up since they are posting the pics to my dad's address in Kent which will take longer to be delivered due to distance)

So I wait for my dad to receive pics, he sends a scan, I then send an appeal to Newham for PCN and removal in the post, if unsuccessful then appeal to the Tribunal. Have I missed anything else?

What I find confusing is:

You can make an informal challenge against a PCN.
If your vehicle was removed to a car pound after a PCN was issued the process is different - refer to the Clamping and Removals page for further information.
Write a letter that includes:
the PCN number
your name
your address
the reasons why you believe the PCN should be cancelled
any evidence you have to support your appeal
your vehicle registration.
Send your letter within 14 days of getting the PCN to:

L B Newham Parking Correspondence
PO Box 71575
London
E6 9LY


But the removals page has no info on appeals. And when I asked him about it he said because I've paid the PCN it's the same (process as if there was no removal)?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 11:54
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9,671
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



I meant get the pics as they may be useful if they show other bays empty.

The best way now is to draft something we can amend here - don't send anything without testing it here first.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
John U.K.
post Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 11:58
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,356
Joined: 9 May 2014
Member No.: 70,515



QUOTE
But all the relevant info was included and I covered up only the details you mentioned. The reverse of the receipt is blank and the other 2 have data protection. it does say important info so I could scan that one?


From your picture I have identified parts of three documents
1) Payment Receipt
2) PCN
3) [Vehicl?]e Receipt

There is often also an authority for removal and some guidance on how to appeal: the latter suggested by this part sentence visible on the [Vehicl?]e Receipt ...been advised of my right to appeal against a....

Were the authority for removal and guidance notes received?

The reason for seeing all sides of all docs (save for personal details) is that the experts here often find mistakes in the 'small print' which may sometimes be winning points. But unless they can see the 'small print' .....


So for best advice please post the rest of 2) & 3).
----------------

EDIT my post crossed with yours #17

The process -

You will be making representations (not an appeal - that's the next stage) against
1) The PCN
2) The subsequent removal

You must do so within 28 days of the release.

You can (IF you find [with the help of the experts here] no reasons to object to it) admit the PCN was reasonable

You must make representations against the PCN, probably on the grounds of being unreasonable and disproportionate.

IF your reps against the PCN are accepted (be prepared to fight on to the Tribunal) by Council or Tribunal all monies will be refunded.
IF your reps against the PCN are rejected but those against the removal are accepted by Council or Tribunal the tow fees will be refunded.

The discounted amount paid cannot be increased to the full amount in any event.

SO, make a list of the reasons why you think the PCN should be cancelled and a list of reasons why you believe the removal should be cancelled.

Do not send anything to the Council without posting here first for comment, but do not miss deadlines.



This post has been edited by John U.K.: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 12:12
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Thu, 14 Mar 2019 - 13:15
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,485
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



Their website is irrelevant.

What someone might or might not have said in the context of an unknown question similarly.

All that counts is the documents given to you when you recovered your vehicle, 11(2) and 11(3) apply:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...ulation/11/made

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Saturday, 23rd March 2019 - 15:54
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.