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PCN disabled bay with roadworks, Coventry city council issued ticket
Pattoj
post Tue, 12 Mar 2019 - 19:39
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Hi guys hoping you can help me.

Got a ticket recently after parking by some roadworks on an apparently marked disabled bay. The sign stating this was within the cordon of the roadworks and the bay had basically no markings.

Here's some pictures, both of at the time and when I returned to the alleged scene of the incursion. (Note: roadworks had been taken down somewhat when I returned)

I'm thinking that my best argument is the complete lack of markings? Any advice as it doesn't seem fair to ticket in an unmaintained bay.

https://ibb.co/d7wFXcg
https://ibb.co/c2zKCWs
https://ibb.co/xShbzX5
https://ibb.co/r2z3Ky5
https://ibb.co/d5QnT8Z
https://ibb.co/K2ySsj8
https://ibb.co/myxMvTK
https://ibb.co/D5Z2TdX
https://ibb.co/NLXsDSC
https://ibb.co/y4S56jF
https://ibb.co/LYRKszy
https://ibb.co/tBjtb9X

Thanks for your help
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post Tue, 12 Mar 2019 - 19:39
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 12 Mar 2019 - 20:17
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Post ALL of the PCN and the council photos and also a GSV


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Pattoj
post Tue, 12 Mar 2019 - 20:40
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https://ibb.co/2KXHGZ6

Sorry, here's the other half of the PCN

I have not been sent any photos from council, I informally appealed to Coventry city council but the ignored all of my points. I'm waiting for it to come through the post so I can formally appeal.

Cheers
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Incandescent
post Tue, 12 Mar 2019 - 21:25
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Are you a Blue Badge holder ? The sign is very clear and right by where you parked your car.
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Mr Meldrew
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 08:54
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I wish public money had been put towards marking the disabled person’s parking bay in the first place in order to help permitted users more easily find the disabled person’s parking place, and prohibited users more easily stay out.

Based on the photographic evidence so far provided, the parking space does not satisfy the relevant provision in the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 as regards an alternative type of parking bay reserved for disabled badge holders.

Regarding the provision referred to above, Provision 1, in Part 3 of Schedule 7 to TSRGD 2016 requires that a restriction or prohibition of a description in column 2 of an item in the Part 4 sign table (“item” in this case being diagram 1028.4, “Alternative types of parking bay”) must be conveyed by road markings of the size, colour and type shown in the diagram in column 3 or that diagram as varied in accordance with the paragraph in Part 5 whose number appears in column 4 of the item (1,2,5,7,10 in fact).

No variation in accordance with the paragraph in Part 5 whose number appears in column 4 (1,2,5,7,10) can account for the absence of prescribed demarcation of an alternative type of parking bay in the parking space at issue.

See for yourself: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made

The statutory requirement for demarcation is conspicuous by its absence in the photographic evidence.

With minor alteration, the above comment could form the body of a challenge. If you want, you could add something like ‘you must now cancel the penalty charge’.
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DancingDad
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 09:19
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https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4080283,-...3312!8i6656
At the moment, it would seem that you were parked where GSV shows a white VW Van.
GSV is dated but shows worn white lines.

To me that is the key.
If lines are worn to the extent that the reasonably observant driver could not tell if these were marked parking bays or the extent of the signed restriction then the council cannot expect to enforce.
But we haven't a clear enough overall view to make a judgement.
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Pattoj
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 10:01
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Thanks for your help everybody, I think there were markings there at some point in the past but they are no longer there in any visible way. I think the only bits left are the end bits but even they are damaged severely.

As for seeing the sign, the footpath was closed for roadworks with people using it to shift materials. If I'd have seen any lines I would not have parked there!

So in regards to a formal challenge shall I write something along the lines of what's been posted above?

I really appreciate everybody's help, if I'd have genuinely thought I'd made a mistake by not taking due notice I'd begrudgingly of paid up but I feel like I've been done over by the council.

Cheers
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DancingDad
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 10:10
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To me the lines are key but it will be for you to show that they are degraded beyond the point where they would be recognised as parking space markings.
Focus on that before the road works, they help in that they obscure the post sign but....
When parking, first things that a driver looks for is road markings.
If none, why should they look further ?
If some, they are then expected to look for the pole signs that show the restriction and abide by it.
TBH, even with relatively clear white lines (worn but visible) in 2012, I am hard pushed to say where the limits of the disabled bay(s) are.
Immediately in front of sign?
If so where are the other pole signs for the other bays?
Does lack of pole signs mean the whole stretch is disabled only?
Motorists should not have to play these sort of guessing games, it should be clear.
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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 11:03
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Perhaps from another angle--a disabled person would not park there if the footpath was closed and the only exit was via the cobbles. Ergo the footpath works have effectively rendered the parking spaces suspended. This to me is signified by the traffic cones.

My view is that the OP should not have parked in the area if the cones are on the carriageway. He did but IMO the contravention is incorrect--should be something like waiting prohibited.

Mick
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 11:06
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Any one want a small wager that regardless of what the OP puts by way of challenge (and for me its lack of bay markings) the council will come back with some blurb about the restricted zone


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Mr Meldrew
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 11:37
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TSRGD 2016 now differs from the previous regulatory regime, both in terms of prescription and structure, and in the context of the Government's policy on traffic signs. According to the ‘Overview’ (May 2016) to the new TSRGD, the Government “stripped out the rules that contributed to the proliferation of traffic signs; providing a pragmatic regulatory regime that keeps the message to the minimum necessary, without distracting road users and spoiling the environment”. Apparently, you as a motorist will feel the benefit in terms of “clear and succinct signing”. I hope that you feel that you are benefiting from it.

The requirement for signs and road markings to be used together has been removed in some cases, and therein lies the problem I think. The new separation does not apply in all cases, and the above statutory requirement regarding disabled demarcation is as it appears in the published TSRGD. It may be that the local authority is a little confused about their responsibilities; after all, they only have the power to impose penalty charges.

Someone might be able to write the argument in a less technical way, but I would certainly include it because I think the absence of demarcation should make the PCN unenforceable. I would wait for further opinions.
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Pattoj
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 12:17
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To be fair if I'd have got a ticket for obstructing the carriageway I'd at least see it from their POV but even then there aren't any signs saying no waiting only one sign saying single file traffic only, even then the distance between the blue hoarding at the other end of the roadworks and the adjacent wall is smaller than the distance between my car and the adjacent wall (even have a picture of a car passing mine parked easily) it doesn't matter about that potential infringement in my opinion because it's not what I've been ticketed for.

From the pictures I took I don't see the markings. As for the sign it originally covered two bays by the looks of things, that makes things slightly more confusing but would still be able to see if it had markings visible.

I know they don't have to put "disabled" in front of the bay in cobbled streets but I wasn't aware of any regs allowing them to just put up a sign to cover an unmarked unspecified portion of road?

Surely the fact that there are markings on Google earth yet not in the later pictures proves my point that the bay hasn't been properly maintained?

This post has been edited by Pattoj: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 12:20
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 12:21
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In the final analysis the signs and markings must comply with The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996

TSRGD 2016 does allow that signs are not needed with marked bays and visa versa but there would need to be some sort of bay demarcation


see 7.5 here

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/go...lar-01-2016.pdf


IMO the signs and marking as is cannot comply with LATOR 18 even substantially



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Pattoj
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 13:28
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I agree and thank you.

The legislation say a sign can be used for a restriction in place at all times, this restriction is only in place from 8:00-18:00 so it seems just a posted sign isn't enforceable and requires bay markings?

This post has been edited by Pattoj: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 13:36
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DancingDad
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 13:36
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QUOTE (Pattoj @ Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 13:28) *
I agree and thank you.

The legislation say a sign can be used for a restriction in place at all times, this restriction is only in place from 8:00-18:00 so it seems just a posted sign isn't enforceable?



NO No No !

Start with road markings
Then anything obstructing sign
Then Sign. (Which is fine BTW, clear and will not be seen as any reason to cancel)

From what I can see, your main argument is simply that due to lack of markings you were not even aware that there were parking restrictions.
Plus roadworks hiding any pole signs (if can be substantiated) so didn't even get a second chance to see the restriction.
Please don't make this more complex then it needs to be.
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Pattoj
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 13:42
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Ah I see, sorry I'm in a bit over my head to be honest.

Road markings first seems logical as it's what I would have seen first if they were there.

So I'm waiting for the notice to owner to arrive for now so I can lodge a formal appeal.

Thanks again!
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Mr Meldrew
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 14:14
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QUOTE (Pattoj @ Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 13:42) *
Road markings first seems logical as it's what I would have seen first if they were there.

Any demarcation may have been left to virtually disappear without reference to the Circular which corresponds to requirement 1(3), in Part 5 of Schedule 7 to TSRGD 2016, namely: “The bay may be varied to contrast, in pattern or colour, from the surrounding parts of the road and any adjoining bays, in which case the marking may be omitted.”
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DancingDad
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 15:16
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QUOTE (Mr Meldrew @ Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 14:14) *
QUOTE (Pattoj @ Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 13:42) *
Road markings first seems logical as it's what I would have seen first if they were there.

Any demarcation may have been left to virtually disappear without reference to the Circular which corresponds to requirement 1(3), in Part 5 of Schedule 7 to TSRGD 2016, namely: “The bay may be varied to contrast, in pattern or colour, from the surrounding parts of the road and any adjoining bays, in which case the marking may be omitted.”

Al due respect Mr M but there is no contrasting or otherwise obvious divide.
If we go back historically on GSV there are two views, from 2008 and 2012....
Lines relatively clear in 2008, there are 6 bays, proper end double lines at the ends, one pole sign.
No demarcation lines within the row of bays.
Only interpretation to that is that all six bays are for disabled badge holders only.

That lines are now worn and that it is now far less obvious if there were any demarcation lines does not damn the markings unless we can point to another pole sign that may have relevance.
That we cannot even point to clear road markings at all bears far more weight IMO.
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Mr Meldrew
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 16:49
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DD we’re on the same page! In the absence of road markings, a bay may be varied to contrast, in pattern or colour, from the surrounding parts of the road, and/or may consist of individual spaces of contrasting pattern or colour. There is nothing of the sort in the photos, so as you say we cannot point to road markings at all, sorry I wasn’t clear.
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cp8759
post Wed, 13 Mar 2019 - 20:24
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Can we see all of the CEO's photos please? I get the feeling most if not all of the photos that we've seen have been taken by Pattoj, but that's not what the council decision maker will be looking at.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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