PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

31J - Entering and stopping in a box (Incorrect time on PCN?), Yellow box placed before traffic lights. Money box!!
AshBob
post Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 22:39
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 29 Aug 2018
Member No.: 99,613



Screenshot of PCN Page 1 - Drobox Link PCN Page 1 of 2
Screenshot of PCN Page 2 - Drobox Link PCN Page 2 of 2
Video Recording - Drobox Link PCN Video Evidence
Image 1 - Car stopping at Green Light - Drobox Link: PCN Image Photo 1 of 3
Image 2 - Pedestrians crossing while light turns orange - Drobox Link: PCN Image Photo 2 of 3
Image 3 - Vehicle Reg - Drobox Link: PCN Image Photo 3 of 3



Hello Everyone,

This is my second post on this site. I had a great response from my first post and with everyone’s help I managed to win on appeal. I just would like some input from the good people on here if I should just pay this PCN or appeal?

I am not so confident of being successful this time around due to the pictures and video evidence (especially in isolation and without context)

Here is a little bit more context and my reason for entering this yellow box:

    - The traffic light was GREEN and traffic was flowing and I thought the cars would continue on moving however one car decided to stop at the traffic light while it was still GREEN.(16hr:43min) to let pedestrians cross, a minute later after the pedestrians have crossed, the lights turned RED which meant all the cars stayed in their position…. including me in the yellow box.
    - From my point of view the traffic light was green and I was expecting the cars to carry on moving..I was not aware of how bad the traffic was up ahead (I know its clear from the video but that is from a camera positioned high up).
    - When it occurred to me that the car in front had stopped and there wasn't enough space to clear the yellow box, I also had to stop my car. I did think about reversing but couldn't since another car was behind me. I knew I was in the yellow box but there was nothing I could do at that time.

OTHER POSSIBLE REASONS TO APPEAL (probably clutching at straws here)
    - The yellow box is just two car lengths away from a traffic light (Is this even allowed?),
    - I wasn't blocking the side road, cars could still enter it.
    - The yellow line in the middle of the box are a bit faded.
    - The Number plate is not super clear, a dark shadow covers half of it.

I would appreciate some feedback, going to upload images and PCN now...

This post has been edited by AshBob: Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 21:47
Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 22:39
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 22:43
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 15,576
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



We help you before and we would have asked for and recieved the PCN and in a MTC we also need the video get that and post also


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
AshBob
post Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 22:59
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 29 Aug 2018
Member No.: 99,613



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 22:43) *
We help you before and we would have asked for and recieved the PCN and in a MTC we also need the video get that and post also


Just in the process of uploading everything, I didn't expect a response so quick especially late on a Friday night smile.gif
Edit: I believe I have uploaded everything, PCN, Video and Images. The links should all work as I made them public from my dropbox.

This post has been edited by AshBob: Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 23:12
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 23:12
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9,671
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



QUOTE (AshBob @ Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 22:39) *
I knew I was in the yellow box but there was nothing I could do at that time.



Well no - there was room on the left out of the box ahead and you could also have turned left or right into side roads. Inconvenient yes but worth saving £65.

Hard to think of an appeal though on the contravention - there may be a PCN fault but I can't see anything.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
AshBob
post Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 23:26
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 29 Aug 2018
Member No.: 99,613



QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 23:12) *
QUOTE (AshBob @ Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 22:39) *
I knew I was in the yellow box but there was nothing I could do at that time.



Well no - there was room on the left out of the box ahead and you could also have turned left or right into side roads. Inconvenient yes but worth saving £65.

Hard to think of an appeal though on the contravention - there may be a PCN fault but I can't see anything.


Thanks stamfordman, I guess you are right I could have done that. It's just at that moment in time so much was happening in my head that I was trying to process things, clearly didn't make the right decision.
- I thought I would not need to stop since the traffic light was green
- People crossing the road while its green didn't help me either.
- I could see up ahead the traffic moving so was expecting the cars ahead of me to move but then at that moment it turned red which made the situation worse.

Ok so not looking to good for me.


Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Incandescent
post Sat, 9 Mar 2019 - 00:00
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,788
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



Having looked at the video, you look bang-to-rights. You charged into the box without any hesitation when the car in front of you had his brake lights on and was almost stationary. The discount looks the best option, I'm afraid, sorry to have to say it. YBJs in London are a major money maker as enforcement costs very little once the kit is installed. Such are the vast sums earned, so far government ministers have refused to let councils outside London enforce YBJs.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neil B
post Sat, 9 Mar 2019 - 00:59
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 20,380
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Member No.: 16,671



PMB and Meldrew obviously haven't seen it yet cos poor driving but don't see a contravention.

Wait a few days Bob, for others.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 9 Mar 2019 - 08:32
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 15,576
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 9 Mar 2019 - 00:59) *
PMB and Meldrew obviously haven't seen it yet cos poor driving but don't see a contravention.

Wait a few days Bob, for others.

Keeping up with traffic, then had to brake quite sharply, why? to Me its the pedestrians at the crossing. The car 2 in front stops well short as the man appears to be stepping out before the lights change


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Sat, 9 Mar 2019 - 10:59
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9,671
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



I think the cars ahead are bunched too tight to win this at adjudication and the OP was some way behind.

This is the guidance from that old H&F doc that we would hope councils would apply:


5. Steady slow moving traffic over a box junction is probably the most difficult scenario to deal with especially if we are dealing with multiple lanes. Somebody suddenly slowing down or stopping short for no good reason may cause a judgement problem, when drivers in the vehicles behind, looking in advance of the vehicle in front of them thought they had judged it correctly and would make it off the box. An example maybe when there are 3 empty car spaces in one lane on the exit side of the box junction and 3 cars start to travel over the box towards them in one line. The first 2 cars may use up all 3 spaces due to leaving large gaps between them. This would be unfair to the third car driver who thought they would all fit in. The critical factor here is that the drivers have a reasonable line of sight to make their judgements. We should apply discretion. We have to weigh up the good momentum of traffic travelling freely over box junctions while not trying to make people treat it like a stop line or give way line unnecessarily. In time deterrence should make more drivers aware of how to treat their approach to a box junction.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 9 Mar 2019 - 11:13
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 15,576
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



I would estimate that the car in front stops at least two car lengths from the crossing doing so sharply causing those behind to need to do the same. not slow moving traffic


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Sat, 9 Mar 2019 - 17:27
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9,307
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



IMO the contravention is banged-to-rights, the PCN has no flaws that I can see and the discount is the best option here.

At 0:01 of the video, there's already a queue of stationary traffic building up ahead. At 0:05 when AshBob's car comes into view it's clear that there is queuing traffic ahead and the exit to the box is not clear at the point in time when the offending vehicle enters the box at 0:06, nor could there have been any expectation that the exit would have become clear in the very short amount of time that it would take to traverse the box:



Unfortunately the driver took a fairly large risk that if the box did not clear pretty quickly, he would be in contravention and unfortunately that's what happened.

The traffic lights are only incidental: they were green when the contravention occurred (at 0:07) and they stayed green for several seconds after the contravention had been committed (they only go amber at 0:15). Sure, if they hadn't gone red, the length of the contravention would have been slightly shorter, but still too much to be de-minimis.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Sat, 9 Mar 2019 - 17:57
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9,671
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



Well at the point of entry there is room for 3 cars ahead which became 2. Thats why I mentioned the H&F guidance. But I think the situation is not clear cut enough for a successful appeal. May be worth a try though on the don't ask don't get principle.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
AshBob
post Sun, 10 Mar 2019 - 21:54
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 29 Aug 2018
Member No.: 99,613



Thanks everyone for your advice. The consensus on here seems that I should pay up at the discounted rate, this is what I plan to do now unless @Neil B has something up his sleeve

QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 9 Mar 2019 - 00:59) *
PMB and Meldrew obviously haven't seen it yet cos poor driving but don't see a contravention.


I just want to add my thoughts to a few of the responses above, I know this does not change the fact that the evidence shows I'm caught in a YBJ :-(

QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sat, 9 Mar 2019 - 00:00) *
You charged into the box without any hesitation when the car in front of you had his brake lights on and was almost stationary.
I would not say I charged in, the car two in front of me did a very harsh break (at 0.03), also the cars were "almost" stationary not stationary..remember the light was green so I don't think its fair to say I charged in.


QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 9 Mar 2019 - 17:27) *
At 0:05 when AshBob's car comes into view it's clear that there is queuing traffic ahead and the exit to the box is not clear at the point in time when the offending vehicle enters the box at 0:06
Yes there is queuing traffic traffic ahead however there is enough car spaces way up ahead and in front of me for me to clear the box...if the car did not stop and the green light to give way to pedestrians.


QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 9 Mar 2019 - 17:27) *
nor could there have been any expectation that the exit would have become clear in the very short amount of time that it would take to traverse the box:
Due to the light being green I would expect the cars to move forward.




This post has been edited by AshBob: Sun, 10 Mar 2019 - 21:57
Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Mon, 11 Mar 2019 - 09:02
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9,307
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (AshBob @ Sun, 10 Mar 2019 - 21:54) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 9 Mar 2019 - 17:27) *
nor could there have been any expectation that the exit would have become clear in the very short amount of time that it would take to traverse the box:
Due to the light being green I would expect the cars to move forward.


You couldn't reasonably hold that expectation: the queue of stationary traffic extended well beyond the light and the cars that were just past the traffic light were not moving at all. By the time the light turned from green to amber, you'd already been stationary on the yellow box marking for some 8 seconds. Sorry to spell it out to you but it's better that I do it here, rather than an adjudicator at the tribunal.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mr Meldrew
post Mon, 11 Mar 2019 - 13:32
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 398
Joined: 31 Aug 2015
From: 19 Riverbank
Member No.: 79,151



I guess Neil was thinking of the rebuttal 'did not have to stop', i.e. stopped to admire the view, or not having to stop at that point but potentially at some point in the future and there’s no such traffic contravention as a potential future one. However, in my view such arguments in practice require an element of empathy because I’m sure adjudicators are aware of money box junctions too, and in the latter case a very short stop, i.e. the car conceivably could have continued slowly for a short while until the traffic ahead moved once more, which was not true here. Also, I’m afraid the pace of the entrance in the face of brake lights ahead, would not help mitigate this simple error in my view.


--------------------
As there is nothing wrong with me, there must be something wrong with the Universe!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
AshBob
post Tue, 12 Mar 2019 - 21:06
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 29 Aug 2018
Member No.: 99,613



QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 9 Mar 2019 - 00:59) *
PMB and Meldrew obviously haven't seen it yet cos poor driving but don't see a contravention.

Wait a few days Bob, for others.


@Neil B - Is there something you see that the others have missed? I have only few days left to challenge this PCN to the LA and keep the discounted rate.

At the moment I can't think of any anything to challenge on..apart from mentioning one of the cars doing a harsh break, leaving a car space gap and letting pedestrians cross while its green.

One other thing I did notice (which I don't know if it's significant), is that the time of the PCN says 16:44 and the contravention is "31j entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited". Technically I entered and was completely stationary at 16:43.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 12 Mar 2019 - 21:59
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 15,576
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



no challenge we could make would be accepted by the council so if you intend to challenge you have plenty oftime left. Representations would need to be submitted by the 3rd of April. The only sure way to get the discount is to pay within the 14 day period


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
AshBob
post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 11:09
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 29 Aug 2018
Member No.: 99,613



Thank again everyone for your help..I have had a few days now to think about what to do next and I have decided to appeal this PCN, I know most of you think I don't have a strong case here and I should pay the discounted rate but I am thinking of arguing with the following points:

- The contravention did not occur - Time on PCN does not correlate to time of alleged contravention.
- The contravention did not occur- Exit not blocked by stationary vehicles.

Here is a image showing the time and the space where my car could have moved to:



I will prepare my letter and post this up later today. What are the initial thoughts on the above...are my chances really slim?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 11:20
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 15,576
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



Your representations will be seen by the adjudicator, they tend to like consistency in the arguments so make sure you include the stop was unpredictable due to the pedestrians stepping out into the crossing


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 14:12
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9,307
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



edit.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Fri, 15 Mar 2019 - 14:12


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Saturday, 23rd March 2019 - 15:56
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.