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Yellow box junction offence - Hammersmith
alfie1968
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 12:37
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Hi,

Newbie here - hoping you can advise or help.

I've just received a PCN though the post from Hammersmith
& Fulham council for a yellow box contravention on 9/2/19.
It was at the box junction of Talgarth Rd and Butterwick.

I have until 1st March to pay the discounted price of £65
but not sure how to approach this so would be grateful
for some help. From reading of similar on here there seems
to be mixed advice.

I live in the North West and wasn't/aren't
familiar with the junction in question as it's in London - I
know that's no defense. Is there any way of challenging this
or is it pointless? Strewth London driving is such a bind!

I've posted a copy of the PCN below.


https://ibb.co/59BNwb4

https://ibb.co/bXg6fsr


Thanks

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post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 12:37
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stamfordman
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 12:41
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We need to see the video. If you have trouble posting it PM me the details.
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alfie1968
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 13:52
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Thanks stamfordman. I am having trouble posting the video up here so have you sent you a PM. Many thanks
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stamfordman
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 14:18
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Have put it on youtube. We see a lot at this junction but not usually so many in the box. Which are you?

Council should sort this one out - it's very unfair to those turning right into this.

https://youtu.be/8W-18vSDOKw
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alfie1968
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 14:26
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Many thanks stamfordman - I am in the black Mokka appearing at 8 seconds on that youtube vid.
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 15:38
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This case mirrors yours and is ground for appeal

Case reference
2180108271
Appellant
Andrew De Havilland
Authority
London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham
VRM
EX65DYC

PCN Details
PCN
HZ23380169
Contravention date
06 Feb 2018
Contravention time
15:54:00
Contravention location
Box Junction - Talgarth Rd J/W Butterwick
Penalty amount
GBP 130.00
Contravention
Entering and stopping in a box junction

Referral date


Decision Date
19 Apr 2018
Adjudicator
Jack Walsh
Appeal decision
Appeal allowed
Direction
cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and the Notice to Owner.
Reasons
Mr. de Havilland appeals against a penalty charge notice (PCN) issued in respect of an alleged contravention of the requirements of a ‘box junction’, as defined in paragraph 11(1) of Part 7 of Schedule 9 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016. Mr. de Havilland attended and we viewed the CCTV footage of the alleged contravention together. Naturally Mr. de Havilland wished to present his argument in relation to the movement of the coach. The position is, however, as we ascertained during the hearing, more straightforward. I did not need to decide the merits of that argument.
Paragraph 11 goes on to say:
“(3) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not, in respect of a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(a) of the definition of that expression, apply to a person who
(a) causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right; and
(b) stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.”
Based on the description in the PCN, this is a box junction between two roads, namely Talgarth Road and Butterwick. Sub-paragraph 6(a) therefore applies. It is clear on the evidence, and I find, that Mr. de Havilland entered the box junction for the purpose of turning right. It is equally clear that he had to stop within it – before he completed the right turn - due to the presence of stationary vehicles. Indeed, two vehicles ahead of him stopped, the first being a coach and the second being another car. I looked carefully at the respective positions of the coach and the vehicle behind it vis-à-vis the carriageway at the point they were stationary. In so doing I looked at the angle of the front wheels of the car ahead of Mr. de Havilland’s vehicle and its position vis-à-vis the lane its driver was seeking to join. The wheels were still turned substantially to the right; they were not positioned straight ahead. The front nearside wheel was wide of the edge of the lane; it was not yet within the lane. It is clear to me, and I find, that neither the coach nor the car behind it had completed their respective right turns. In short, they had not yet lined up with the carriageway and were still in the process of turning right when they came to a halt. Mr. de Havilland’s vehicle was only stationary behind those vehicles whilst they were stationary in the positions I have described. Accordingly, sub-paragraph (3) applies and the contravention is not proved.


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alfie1968
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 23:11
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Thanks PASTMYBEST - very interesting reading.

I would argue my situation mirror's this previous case you have detailed and where the appeal was allowed.

Since I only have 3 more days before the discount period runs out - would the consensus be to challenge this?


Thanks

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Neil B
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 23:41
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I disagree.
The adjudicator erred in that case: This is not a right turn in the way that the law intends.

And, after discounting that, the most obvious contravention I've seen in a long while.

Pay the discount amount.

But wait to see what others have to say.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 27 Feb 2019 - 08:59
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Neil and I will have to agree to agree but disagree on this. I too think the adjudicator, if not erring was generous with the interpretation. though for different reasons.

I think this is part of a gyratory system and as such the right turn exemption would not apply. This adjudicator found otherwise, that it is a junction between two roads so the exemption does apply.

if it does then you are waiting to complete a right turn behind a vehicle that has not completed its turn and so are entitled to the exemption

There are other cases

2180148403 2170442131

look them up here

https://londontribunals.org.uk/

There are times when adjudicators take a view which our collective wisdom is sure is wrong and we have to live with it. In a case like this it could go either way so you have to decide coz its your money




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stamfordman
post Wed, 27 Feb 2019 - 11:07
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I agree with Neil - we see a lot of these junctions (eg that one in Kingston too) and my take is that they should be appealed on unfairness and field of view but the right turn exemption is not valid.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 27 Feb 2019 - 12:13
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We often make arguments at adjudication that have not been tested, many times they are successful sometimes they are not. Here we have an argument that was put to adjudication and accepted, though not a binding finding. I feel it wrong not to give an OP the facts and let them decide rather than just saying pay up


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stamfordman
post Wed, 27 Feb 2019 - 12:39
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 27 Feb 2019 - 12:13) *
We often make arguments at adjudication that have not been tested, many times they are successful sometimes they are not. Here we have an argument that was put to adjudication and accepted, though not a binding finding. I feel it wrong not to give an OP the facts and let them decide rather than just saying pay up



Of course I agree that in making reps it can certainly be introduced with a case ref. I would also make other points.
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cp8759
post Wed, 27 Feb 2019 - 21:01
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I agree with Neil, the adjudicator in the case quoted was wrong. Of course you can always chance it at adjudication, but relying on the adjudicator to effectively fall into an error of law is a risky gamble, I'd but the chances of success at 10% at best.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 27 Feb 2019 - 22:40
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Two adjudicators find the same.

I would suggest that if a council applied for review in that the adjudicator erred in law it would be refused.

If the adjudicator finds that this is a junction between two roads then they are entitled to find that the exemption is valid. Another adjudicator might find differently. So unfortunately it is always a gamble

And IMO there is a better than 10% chance the council do not contest


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cp8759
post Thu, 28 Feb 2019 - 09:50
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 27 Feb 2019 - 22:40) *
Two adjudicators find the same.

I would suggest that if a council applied for review in that the adjudicator erred in law it would be refused.

I don't disagree. If they went to JR though, it might be a different story. I agree the council may well not contest.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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alfie1968
post Fri, 1 Mar 2019 - 20:42
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Thanks for all your opinions. I have read with interest the numerous similar cases for this junction.
I agree that blocking yellow box junctions is annoying but this seems like it's a flawed junction
that is a nice little earner for the LA.

I was under the apprehension that I had until midnight tonight to pay the discounted price
but having just worked the dates out I think that I'm a day out and that actually expired last night.

I was still undecided what to do based on the mixed opinion on here but I've nothing to lose now
so may as well appeal it and keep my fingers crossed.

Since I'm a newbie this is all new to me but I'm amazed that precedents aren't set from previous similar cases,
especially at the same junction. How is it right that the same junctions keep cropping up with the same issues
when adjudicators have previously ruled against the LA?

I appreciate the particular situations and circumstances can be different each time but it seems like a farce of a
system that is putting the onus completely on the motorist - doesn't seem vey fair.

I now need to formulate a coherent appeal.
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stamfordman
post Fri, 1 Mar 2019 - 20:52
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Check online what is being asked to pay - personally I would pay the discount. Or put in an appeal now if still showing at £65.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 1 Mar 2019 - 20:54
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alfie1968
post Fri, 1 Mar 2019 - 21:00
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Right, I've just checked online and the option to pay the discounted price of £65 is still there so the deadline must be tonight.

If I appeal now, whilst it's still at the discounted price, does that stop the clock and allow me to pay the discounted price if my appeal
fails? Is there a benefit of me appealing whilst still at the discounted price?
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stamfordman
post Fri, 1 Mar 2019 - 21:07
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QUOTE (alfie1968 @ Fri, 1 Mar 2019 - 21:00) *
Right, I've just checked online and the option to pay the discounted price of £65 is still there so the deadline must be tonight.

If I appeal now, whilst it's still at the discounted price, does that stop the clock and allow me to pay the discounted price if my appeal
fails? Is there a benefit of me appealing whilst still at the discounted price?



yes, they will reoffer the discount and will probably do so even if it's a bit late.
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alfie1968
post Fri, 1 Mar 2019 - 21:16
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OK, I didn't know that. I assumed if I appealed I automatically lost the offer of a discount.

Can I appeal it putting "detailed grounds to follow" because it's just I'm off abroad
for a few days from tomorrow so don't really have the time to type up a full on appeal
until my return on Friday?
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