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Help needed - YBJ Barnet
rjutd
post Sat, 23 Feb 2019 - 22:14
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Today I received YBJ PCN from Barnet council.

Date of contravention 06/02/2019 16:07
Street High Street (EN5), junction with Wood Street
Location 055CUV1 Contravention Code 31J
Contravention Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited

Video
https://streamable.com/q57ue - Grey Car entering YBJ at 16:07:44

Images






This post has been edited by rjutd: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 18:21
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post Sat, 23 Feb 2019 - 22:14
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peterguk
post Sat, 23 Feb 2019 - 23:11
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Any questions?


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stamfordman
post Sun, 24 Feb 2019 - 00:02
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I can't see much of a contravention there - only a marginal rear of car in box owing to lorry pulling out. As Peter says, any questions?
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rjutd
post Sun, 24 Feb 2019 - 00:07
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Thanks. I am thinking of putting a challenge.

This was caused by the lorry pulling out and that too was for <5 seconds and did not cause any traffic issues.

My question is what's the best way I can make my case. I have never challenged a PCN before.
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stamfordman
post Sun, 24 Feb 2019 - 00:09
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it's a footling contarvention - we'll help you draft something. But later.
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rjutd
post Sun, 24 Feb 2019 - 00:58
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Many thanks, stamfordman. Really appreciate your help.



Reading some of the other posts I've summarised the information below (if it is of any use)

I believe that the PCN should be cancelled with immediate effect for the following reasons:

1) No contravention occurred and no PCN payment is due.

2) The amount of time the vehicle was in stationary in the box is 4 seconds and this falls under the de minimis rule in law so no contravention occurred. When I entered the YBJ it was possible to exit without stopping.
The first of the two cars in front of me stopped to give way to a lorry pulling out and moving into the right lane, thus leaving my car stranded partly in the box. Only the rear end of the vehicle was partially on the exit portion of the YBJ. My vehicle was stationary in this manner purely due to the in-anticipatable actions of the lorry moving out into the right lane and one of the vehicles in front of me deciding to give way causing the 2 following vehicles including mine to break and stop momentarily.
Given that only part of the vehicle was on the YBJ, for a very short period of time and there was no interference or disruption to other road users, any contravention was very, very minimal and falls under the de minimis rule and no penalty is payable.

3) The sole function of the YBJ is to help prevent obstruction to traffic and given that there was no obstruction or interference to the traffic flow no contravention occurred.
As the video clearly shows, my vehicle did not obstruct or block any other vehicle or user. It was only the rear end of my vehicle that was partially in at the exit portion of the YBJ.

4) As a public body, the London Borough of Barnet is under a legal duty to act fairly and proportionately. Given that only part of the vehicle was in the exit portion of the YBJ, the length of time stationary in the box of 4 seconds and that there was no obstruction or interference with traffic flow, a PCN of £130 is both unfair and disproportionate.


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Mr Mustard
post Sun, 24 Feb 2019 - 10:10
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That demonstrates how difficult it is to predict traffic flow in a yellow box and why you should stop at the box entry and wait for it to clear or use the empty space at the left hand side to exit.

The problem is that the car was stopped due to a stationary car, which was stopped due to the moving lorry. I would still fight it though as the ground falls away and makes the extent of the junction hard to discern. A photo taken from car level of the area on approach would help.


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rjutd
post Sun, 24 Feb 2019 - 10:29
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Thanks. Actually, I remember this incident very well. At the time, the white car behind me honked and I judged it to be coming at pace, to be able for me safely exit from left without avoiding a collision. Also, I had just received the car back from a bodywork repair caused due to a lorry swerving into the left lane about a week before in a separate non-fault incident (and at a completely different location). I understand this explanation is not relevant to fight the case, but just to explain the context that influenced the split-second decision of not moving into the left lane to exit.
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Mr Meldrew
post Sun, 24 Feb 2019 - 11:23
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In your reps you need to focus concisely on the free flowing state of the traffic heading along the length of your intended exit lane and the obviously more than ample space available to receive your car at the time you drove it into the box junction. Regarding the source of the sudden and unnecessary stop further along the exit lane (for the delivery lorry to leave), you also need to focus on the absence of any predictability from your vantage point low to the road, not that of the CCTV high up, and how these facts show that your judgement was not at fault upon entry into the box. You should say that you had to stop your car because of the intervening act of the other driver which was not predictable at the point of entry, and that you cannot fairly be held liable for a contravention when it was outside your judgment to prevent it.

You should not begin with a de minimis thrust because there is argument above that is more forceful, but slotting in somewhere that the stop lasted a trifling four seconds might help. IMO, avoid negatives such as “leaving my car stranded”; also, the “no interference/disruption” argument and not moving into the left lane has no force.

As stamf said, the forum will help you get it right.
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rjutd
post Sun, 24 Feb 2019 - 22:32
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Thanks Mr Meldrew.
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rjutd
post Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 17:59
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QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Sun, 24 Feb 2019 - 10:10) *
A photo taken from car level of the area on approach would help.


Thanks Mr Mustard. This is a photo taken from the car on approach

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Mr Meldrew
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 17:11
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rjutd, consider this if you are struggling, and note that if you challenge within 14 days of the date of the PCN and Barnet reject your representations, you will be given the chance to pay the reduced amount of £65.00 for another 14 days from when they write back to you.

Dear Sirs,

PCN No. ********
Keeper/owner ******* ********
31J Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited

Entering

When I was about to enter the box junction, there was free movement of traffic ahead and in my chosen exit lane and a strong likelihood that this unobstructed lane would easily accommodate my vehicle and more. Your CCTV confirms this evidence.

Stopping

When I was about to exit the box junction, a driver ahead performed the unnecessary act of coming to a halt partway along my chosen exit lane in order to accord precedence to vehicle at the kerbside. Your CCTV also confirms this evidence.

Prohibition

I deny the allegation made. I was able to see the conditions as stated but, as I am unable to perceive future events, I was unable to see the intervening act. My judgment was not therefore at fault at the point of entry and as I did not breach the entry prohibition, no contravention had occurred. I draw your attention to the fact that you CCTV operator benefited from a high vantage point denied me near ground level.

The Regulation

Describing as it does a consequence that a vehicle has to stop in the box due to the presence of stationary vehicles, the Regulation does not thereby impose a necessity upon a driver that he must wait outside the box to see if traffic ahead will become stationary before he decides to enter. The traffic may still be moving when the driver enters and yet a contravention can still occur if the traffic stops thereafter. This is the driver’s risk in the judgment exercised unless, as in my case, the driver could not have predicted the reason for the stopping of the vehicles ahead.

The Highway Code

I have had regard to the relevant paragraph that advises motorists, “ You must not enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear.” However, I am of the view that this steps rather beyond what is required by the Regulation. In real-world London traffic, drivers have to exercise a degree of prediction in their judgment as to whether the exit space will be clear, or the flow of traffic would be adversely affected. A driver is not to blame if the exit is thereafter blocked by an unexpected event, such as the intervening and unnecessary action of another driver.

Conclusion

As no contravention had occurred, this challenge must be allowed.
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rjutd
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 20:47
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QUOTE (Mr Meldrew @ Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 17:11) *
rjutd, consider this if you are struggling, and note that if you challenge within 14 days of the date of the PCN and Barnet reject your representations, you will be given the chance to pay the reduced amount of £65.00 for another 14 days from when they write back to you.


Thank you very much Mr Meldrew. Really appreciate your help. I assume you are recommending that I should not draw attention to the aspect of de minimis.

I'll submit this as my challenge and post council's response on the forum.
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Mr Meldrew
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 21:54
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Sorry, I overlooked de minimis; now added with some minor corrections. Wait in case others want to comment, but don’t risk missing the discount period.

Dear Sirs,

PCN No. ********
Keeper/owner ******* ********
31J Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited

Entering

When I was about to enter the box junction, there was free movement of traffic ahead and in my chosen exit lane and a strong likelihood that this unobstructed lane would easily accommodate my vehicle and more. Your CCTV confirms this evidence.

Stopping

When I was about to exit the box junction, a driver ahead performed the unnecessary act of coming to a halt partway along my chosen exit lane in order to accord precedence to a vehicle at the kerbside causing my vehicle to pause for a de minimis four seconds. Your CCTV also confirms this evidence.

Prohibition

I deny the allegation made. I was able to see the conditions as stated but, as I am unable to perceive future events, I was unable to see the intervening act. My judgment was not therefore at fault at the point of entry and as I did not breach the entry prohibition, no contravention had occurred. I draw your attention to the fact that your CCTV operator benefited from a high vantage point denied me near ground level.

The Regulation

Describing as it does a consequence that a vehicle has to stop in the box due to the presence of stationary vehicles, the Regulation does not thereby impose a necessity upon a driver that he must wait outside the box to see if traffic ahead will become stationary before he decides to enter. The traffic may still be moving when the driver enters and yet a contravention can still occur if the traffic stops thereafter. This is the driver’s risk in the judgment exercised unless, as in my case, the driver could not have predicted the reason for the stopping of the vehicles ahead.

The Highway Code

I have had regard to the relevant paragraph that advises motorists, “ You must not enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear.” However, I am of the view that this steps rather beyond what is required by the Regulation. In real-world London traffic, drivers have to exercise a degree of prediction in their judgment as to whether the exit space will be clear, or the flow of traffic would be adversely affected. A driver is not to blame if the exit is thereafter blocked by an unexpected event, such as the intervening and unnecessary action of another driver.

Conclusion

As no contravention had occurred, this challenge must be allowed.
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rjutd
post Wed, 27 Feb 2019 - 07:44
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Thanks again Mr Meldrew. As you suggest I'll wait for others' to comment. I plan to post by Saturday to ensure I post the challenge by the end of the discount period..

This post has been edited by rjutd: Fri, 1 Mar 2019 - 00:39
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rjutd
post Fri, 1 Mar 2019 - 06:07
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I plan to post this tomorrow online at https://barnetocm.itsvc.co.uk/
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rjutd
post Sun, 3 Mar 2019 - 19:47
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Submitted online and got an instant automated email acknowledgement.

This post has been edited by rjutd: Sun, 3 Mar 2019 - 19:53
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rjutd
post Sun, 10 Mar 2019 - 00:04
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No further acknowledgement/update yet. Hope their online system really works.
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cp8759
post Sun, 10 Mar 2019 - 12:43
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Didn't you take a screenshot?


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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rjutd
post Sun, 10 Mar 2019 - 22:19
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no but I've got an automated email from BarnetParking@nsl.co.uk stating that

QUOTE
Please find below the information you submitted online to be included in your representation.

Submission Date/Time: 04/03/2019 10:49:41
PCN Reference: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Submission Reference: XXXXXXXXX

And below this my name, address and the entire representation text has been included. Is that enough?
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