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PCN Issued for Parking in Suspended Parking Area- is it legal?
palmk002
post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 12:09
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Wondering if someone can help. Yesterday I parked in a disabled bay as I always do with a valid blue badge and time displayed and there were others all parked along the bays. Upon returning to the car, I discovered a ticket, and got really wound up so didnt bother looking, there was another person parked behind and they had also got a parking ticket and were you could see she was also annoyed, and frustrated. I left and upon returning late last night found that these suspended parking signs were up for 3 bays (see the pictures below- I'm not disputing they wern't there earlier). To me when you park on the right hand side these would not be visible and in my mind the notice may not be valid/illegal? I also thought barriers are usually out to stop parking but the barriers are flush to the building. If i'm wrong i am wrong but could really do without paying for something i and others parked didn't see sad.gif .

I should note this road is a dead end, shops on the left with a very small car park beside, and disabled bays on the right of the road with no connection to the carpark owned by Farmfoods (FF have a seperate parking firm) which is operated by local council. With the amount of notices on the works barriers/boarding would you really consider reading all of them when your in a busy place, often backed up with other cars trying to turn around or get in a parking bay?








This post has been edited by palmk002: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 12:32
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post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 12:09
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TigerRob
post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 12:50
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DFT Authorisation here: http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-4523.pdf
Clause 2 limits use of the sign to 6 months. But This suspension is for 9.5 months. Can we make a case from that?
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cp8759
post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 18:38
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QUOTE (TigerRob @ Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 12:50) *
DFT Authorisation here: http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-4523.pdf
Clause 2 limits use of the sign to 6 months. But This suspension is for 9.5 months. Can we make a case from that?

In theory yes but I suspect the tribunal would say the sign is valid for the first six months, so it only becomes invalid on 8 July.

palmk002, upload the PCN, both sides in full, redact only the number plate.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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palmk002
post Thu, 10 Jan 2019 - 10:03
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Thanks for your help. I've hopefully attached the pcn front and back to this reply.
Attached thumbnail(s)
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cp8759
post Thu, 10 Jan 2019 - 17:12
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Sutton PCNs are really good (other councils could learn from them), and to be honest I was about to tell you to pay the discount, until I spotted this: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3649503,-...33;8i8192?hl=en

So it looks like the bays have been suspended for many, many months already, at the very least from March 2018 when the Google car drove past. Therefore the highways authority is in breach of article 2 of the SoS authorisation, which directs that a suspension sign cannot be used for more than six months.

So I would make representations on this basis:
--------------
Dear Sir or Madam,

There are no parking suspension signs in the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016, so the council has quite properly applied for, and obtained, a special authorisation from the Secretary of State, who has issued a special authorisation under sections 64 and 65 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984. The authorisation is published under reference GT50/095/0012 and is available from assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-4523.pdf

In the authorisation the Secretary of State "directs that the authorised sign may not be erected at the same location for longer than six months", a quick search on Google Street View confirms suspension signs had been installed as early as March 2018 and possibly earlier than that. It follows that while the suspension might have been legally signed when it first came into force, because the six month time limit has long since expired, the signs are being used in a manner which is not authorised by the Secretary of State.

The council has no power to derogate from or otherwise ignore the directions given by the Secretary of State, or else those directions would become dead letter, and the whole process of a highways authority obtaining a special authorisation from the Secretary of State would become a meaningless charade. In the circumstances, you will see that the only reasonable course of action is to cancel the penalty charge notice.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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palmk002
post Thu, 10 Jan 2019 - 17:26
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Thanks cp8759 for this useful reply.

Am i to use the representation you provided word for word as a challenge but obviously input the details of the PCN? Sorry I am not good with all this and was pointed in the direction of this forum, which I am glad I have come across.

smile.gif
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cp8759
post Thu, 10 Jan 2019 - 20:30
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QUOTE (palmk002 @ Thu, 10 Jan 2019 - 17:26) *
Thanks cp8759 for this useful reply.

Am i to use the representation you provided word for word as a challenge but obviously input the details of the PCN? Sorry I am not good with all this and was pointed in the direction of this forum, which I am glad I have come across.

smile.gif

Well yes obviously you need to add your name, address, number plate and PCN number, but other than that you can just copy/paste my draft.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 19:41


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No, I am not a lawyer.
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TigerRob
post Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 08:51
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 10 Jan 2019 - 17:12) *
Sutton PCNs are really good (other councils could learn from them), and to be honest I was about to tell you to pay the discount, until I spotted this: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3649503,-...33;8i8192?hl=en

Nice spot CP. It's a same that google maps resolution is not good enough to read the dates from the suspension signs, but whatever I try I can't quite make it out.
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palmk002
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 15:16
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This is sadly the response I received...

Thank you for writing to us.
We have carefully considered your circumstances, however I regret for the
reasons stated below we are unable to cancel the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).
You were issued a PCN for parking where parking had been suspended. There
were yellow signs advising motorists that the restriction was in place.
Your comments regarding displaying a disabled badge has been noted however
please be advised this is not a situation where you may use your disabled badge.
Furthermore you also state the authorised sign may not be erected at the same
location for longer than six months, however I am satisfied that this signage is
compliant with regulations set out by the London Borough of Sutton, therefore the
aforementioned PCN was issued correctly on this occasion.
You can view photographic evidence of your case online at
https://suttonices.parkinguk.org/parking/
You have these choices:
• You can pay the discount charge of £55.00 if your payment reaches us within 14
days of the date of this letter. PLEASE NOTE: if you write back in to the council
again or before a Notice to Owner is served, the discounted period will not be
placed on hold or re-offered.
• You can pay £110.00 within 28 days of the date your PCN was issued.
• You can formally challenge your PCN. The vehicle’s registered keeper will
automatically receive a Notice to Owner (NtO) if the PCN has not been paid within
28 days of being issued. The NtO will allow the registered keeper of the vehicle to
either formally challenge your PCN or pay the full £110.00 within 28 days from the date of that notice. If the formal representation is rejected by the Council, a Notice
of rejection will be served and the registered keeper will then have 28 days from
the date of that Notice of Rejection to either pay the penalty or to appeal to the
independent Adjudicator at London Tribunals
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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 16:25
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"unable" = fettered discretion.

Of course they are able to cancel the PCN by the simple exercise of discretion.

The "sticky thread" has lots of case precedents for this ground.

If they let this get to adjudication they will get a right bollicking.

Mick
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 16:39
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compliant with regulations set out by the London Borough of Sutton biggrin.gif


did you use the draft from CP verbatim, or did you add a bit re your BB?


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palmk002
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 17:31
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I did use the draft from CP but included my details and the fact that the signs are not clear as others would not have parked in the same way if it was evidently clear.

Theyve not even acknowledged that the sign that is up is up for "9 months" nor the fact of CPs draft which details it has been suspended before. Somehow cant see me getting out of this one. Very bog standard response.

I note that since the event, the barriers have been put into the bays blocking them off which is what should have been done in the first place in my opinion.

This post has been edited by palmk002: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 17:32
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cp8759
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 22:12
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They're just trying it on. I have a draft somewhere where a council thought it had the same powers of the Secretary of State and I said it must be suffering form delusions of grandeur, I need to dig it out for the formal reps stage biggrin.gif


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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palmk002
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 22:31
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Do you suggest taking it all the way to the later stages of appeal, or just paying it? Thanks CP and others for your help. Appreciate it.
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cp8759
post Thu, 17 Jan 2019 - 21:17
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QUOTE (palmk002 @ Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 22:31) *
Do you suggest taking it all the way to the later stages of appeal, or just paying it? Thanks CP and others for your help. Appreciate it.

Take it all the way to the tribunal if need be. The council think you have to follow their rules, but they don't need to follow anyone's rules and they can just do what they like. It doesn't work like that.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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palmk002
post Thu, 17 Jan 2019 - 22:04
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Thanks CP, i had the letter same as the email response today. So will await for the notice to vehicle owner as I assume thats the next stage? I cant do anymore until then?
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cp8759
post Fri, 18 Jan 2019 - 11:23
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QUOTE (palmk002 @ Thu, 17 Jan 2019 - 22:04) *
Thanks CP, i had the letter same as the email response today. So will await for the notice to vehicle owner as I assume thats the next stage? I cant do anymore until then?

The only thing you need to do now is get your V5C and check that the name and address is 100% correct (don't assume, actually get it out and check). Other than that, just wait.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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palmk002
post Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 14:42
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So the PCN was issued on the 8th January 2019. I have checked vehicle registration and all is fine with name and address, however Ive not heard any more. e.g. notice to keeper. Is this normal?
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cp8759
post Mon, 18 Feb 2019 - 00:05
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QUOTE (palmk002 @ Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 14:42) *
So the PCN was issued on the 8th January 2019. I have checked vehicle registration and all is fine with name and address, however Ive not heard any more. e.g. notice to keeper. Is this normal?

It's not unusual, they have six months to issue the Notice to Owner. You could have a look on the council website, it may show whether the NtO has been issued. Failing that, you could always call them up and chase the NtO, though there's no real need. If they don't issue the NtO for 2/3 months, you can also claim there's been an unfair delay.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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palmk002
post Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 14:06
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Well that's my flag of hope shredded. It's just turned up in a brown envelope- always know something's official/bad when in a brown envelope annoyingly. What do I need to do now/need to say to continue challenging this? Please
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