PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

NCP ANPR ticket - driver not identified
MickW
post Sun, 30 Dec 2018 - 13:56
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 76
Joined: 12 Feb 2012
Member No.: 53,100



Hello

Looking for some assistance here. My vehicle was recently driven into an NCP car park, and was photographed on entry and again on leaving after spending just under 20 minutes in the car park. The driver apparently forgot/failed for some other reason to purchase a ticket. I have received all of the usual correspondence and have written to them stating that I am not in a position to identify the driver at the material time as I cannot remember who it was that was driving the car on that particular day, and judging by the photographic evidence they have provided, neither are they (it was an ANPR ticket). I also told them that I made a request for a POPLA code at that time but received no response.

I have now received a letter before claim from their debt collector (BW Legal), and contacted NCP again pointing out all of the above and again requesting POPLA code, which they are now refusing to provide on the grounds that it’s ‘too late’ and they are directing me back to the debt collector.. I haven’t corresponded with them yet, but realise that the clock is ticking.

I have contacted NCP once more stating that my request for a POPLA code is still valid, as there is nothing whatsoever to prevent them from considering a challenge at any stage. I am also saying that refusing access to their alternative dispute resolution procedure on these grounds would be unreasonable and a breach of the Civil Procedure Rules.

I have made an SAR asking for all correspondence in relation to this matter, but they have not fully complied, only sending me a copy of their 'final reminder' document which shows their 'photographic evidence' which, as stated, only shows the bottom half of the front and rear of the car entering and leaving the car park and does not show who was driving. I have requested that they fully comply with the SAR by providing me with copies of the NTK, PCN and any other relevant documents and I will update this thread once I receive a response to these latest requests.

Ultimately I am basing my appeal on the fact that they have failed to identify the driver of the vehicle at the material time, and cannot hold the registered keeper of the vehicle liable for a contravention that was carried out by an unidentified person. I am not legally responsible for the actions of the person driving the vehicle, and they could not legally oblige me to provide them with the identity of the driver, even if I were in a position to do so.

Not too sure how strong this defence would be in court so that’s one thing I could do with some advice upon – something to do with whether POFA applies(?) and I am not sure whether it does in this instance.

I realise I may be skating on thin ice but any input would be gratefully received.

Thanks for any advice you may be able to give.


M

This post has been edited by MickW: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 - 14:17
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
6 Pages V   1 2 3 > »   
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Sun, 30 Dec 2018 - 13:56
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
ostell
post Sun, 30 Dec 2018 - 14:05
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9,950
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



Makes no difference if the driver cannot be identified. If they have complied with the requirements of POFA then they can hold the keeper liable, which is what they are trying to do.

So post up the PCN you say you have, suitably redacted, but leave dates. A check of POFA requirements can be made.

Get back on to them and tell them that they must not continue with this matter untill such time as the comply fully with the SAR request.

Complain to the ICO if you consider that they have not complied with your request.


POFA = Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 No windscreen ticket then paragraph 9 is applicable.

This post has been edited by ostell: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 - 14:07
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MickW
post Sun, 30 Dec 2018 - 14:25
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 76
Joined: 12 Feb 2012
Member No.: 53,100



Okay thanks for that ostell

I have requested a copy of the PCN under my SAR and will post a redacted copy as soon as I get it. Will be telling them to desist from any further action until such time as the SAR is complied with fully.

Cheers.

M

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Macapaca
post Sun, 30 Dec 2018 - 16:10
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 430
Joined: 10 Oct 2017
Member No.: 94,458



Post deleted.

This post has been edited by Macapaca: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 - 16:12
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MickW
post Thu, 3 Jan 2019 - 16:40
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 76
Joined: 12 Feb 2012
Member No.: 53,100



Hi

Just a quick update - NCP have not fully complied with my SAR. I have requested copies of NTK, PCN and any other relevant documents sent to me by post, but they are saying the only thing they can provide is their 'final reminder'. I have been contacted by BW Legal and I am minded to tell them that they must not continue with this matter until such time as the SAR request as been fully complied with - would this be the best way to proceed?.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Thu, 3 Jan 2019 - 16:57
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9,950
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



Yes, remind BW that their client has not complied with the requirements of the SAR request and they should put any action on hold until such time as NCP respond correctly. You could also flag it to the ICO

If all they have is a final reminder then there cannot possibly be a case against you as there are no documents showing the alleged debt.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MickW
post Fri, 4 Jan 2019 - 11:08
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 76
Joined: 12 Feb 2012
Member No.: 53,100



Update:

NCP DPO has sent the following:

"All the information the company holds on you, was sent to you on completion of your SAR.
I see that you are in communication with BW Legal, they may hold the information you are looking for."

Surely if the alleged debt is with NCP and they are the Data Controller, BW Legal would not liable for completion of an SAR request sent to their client.

I'm thinking I should send NCP a message telling them that without these documents there is no case against me, and that I will be flagging this to the ICO. Also, if BW legal do have copies of these documents they will have to provide me with these under Pre-Action Protocols before commencing court action - would that be the right thing to do?

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Fri, 4 Jan 2019 - 11:34
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9,950
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



So to NCP again pointing out that they are the controllers of your personal data and are required by law to account for its location and to hold it safe. It is not possible for them to transfer their liabilities for its safe keeping to a subcontractor. Again you request all your personal data that they should have been holding, and if necessary obtain it from BWL. Copy this to the ICO as a breach of data protection requirements.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MickW
post Fri, 4 Jan 2019 - 14:12
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 76
Joined: 12 Feb 2012
Member No.: 53,100



Thanks Ostell good point well made.

Question: Do I need to be mindful of the approaching deadline for their solicitors's LBA, or would updating them of the situation with their client's non-compliance with the SAR be sufficient to put that on hold, or to be the basis of a good defence should they go ahead anyway?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Macapaca
post Fri, 4 Jan 2019 - 15:32
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 430
Joined: 10 Oct 2017
Member No.: 94,458



It is worth reminding them that they are obliged to fully comply with the PAP and in so doing provide ALL the required information and documents. Should they ignore this obligation and continue with court action then you will request a formal stay of proceedings until they do. This puts you on the front foot and gives you more control of the situation. They won't like that because they like to be harassing people into paying!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Fri, 4 Jan 2019 - 16:07
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9,950
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



Remind the solicitor that their client has failed to comply with a SAR request made in order to clear up any differences. You do not expect them to continue with the claim until such time a proper response is received. And the rest of post #10
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MickW
post Fri, 4 Jan 2019 - 16:53
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 76
Joined: 12 Feb 2012
Member No.: 53,100



Thanks Macapaca and ostell

Email sent - will keep you updated
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MickW
post Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 15:30
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 76
Joined: 12 Feb 2012
Member No.: 53,100



NCP have (cheekily) come back with the following:

https://ico.org.uk/media/for-organisations/...dp-guidance.pdf
Please see the above link to the ICO's guidance on Data Controllers. Please read page 12.

To summarise the guidance:
- Lawyers and other specialist professional advisers (such as doctors and accountants) will always be data controllers -whether they are subcontracted or not.

Therefore, as you aware, as a data controller, they are required by law to account for your personal data's location and to hold it safe. The liability for its safe keeping is theirs. Also, BW Legal has the responsibility of completing SARs independently from NCP. I'm sure BW Legal will happy complete any SARs you submit to them.

I've drafted the following reply and would appreciate your opinion on whether this is okay:

Dear [DATA CONTROLLER]

Thank you for your email. You are the data controller, therefore it is incumbent upon you to comply fully with my SAR, regardless of the guidance you have cited. I will be flagging this to the ICO as my understanding is that, by failing to comply fully with my SAR, you are in breach of your obligations under the Data Protection Act.

BW Legal have an obligation under Pre-Action Protocols to provide me with copies of any evidence that they intend to rely on to support their claim against me, so a SAR from me to BW Legal would neither be necessary nor appropriate .

Thanks etc
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nosferatu1001
post Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 18:50
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 20,105
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Member No.: 15,642



Make it stronger

I want all data YoU hold on me, as a data controller (as defined in your KADOE agreement with the DVLA) you have an obligation to provide this. Your original deadline of x still applies, regardless of your flawed response

To be clear; I require all data YOU hold on me. This may be the same as the data BW legal holds on me, but that is irrelevant

Your refusal to comply with your legal obligations has been noted, and a complaint made to the ICO. Failing to comply with the deadline of x, which stands, will result in the complaint being added to.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MickW
post Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 11:50
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 76
Joined: 12 Feb 2012
Member No.: 53,100



Thanks Nosferatu

I can make it stronger, but they are basically stating that they have given me all the data they have got, so they're unlikely to be able to comply. I think the ICO complaint needs to go ahead. If they have passed copies the documents containing my data on to BWL and then destroyed the originals (which is unlikely), that would put them in breach of their responsibilities to keep the data safely, as I understand it.

For me, the main issue is the Letter Before Action from BWL. The deadline to respond is fast approaching, and if I they don't send me a copy of the NTK or PCN, which they have to do under PAP, then I will request a formal stay of proceedings until such time as they do. If they can't produce them, then they have no case smile.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nosferatu1001
post Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 12:45
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 20,105
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Member No.: 15,642



Im confused
Are you saying NCP HAVE come back with all data? Was there more to the email / letter than you posted above?
If so that might change things

The response to the LBC from BW Legal is the hold on proceedings while SAR is dealt with letter yo ushoul dhave seen

Point out that so far you havent seen the NtK, and as it wasnt served on you, you have no liabilty. If they continue to evade answering when it was issued, and provinding a copy, you will invite any court to draw the obvious conclusion.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MickW
post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 09:13
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 76
Joined: 12 Feb 2012
Member No.: 53,100




NCP are stating that they have fully complied with the SAR and given me all of the data they hold on me, but all they have given me is a Final Reminder, not a NtK nor a PCN (see post #5).

I've sent them the following message:

"I want all data YOU hold on me, as the data controller as defined in your KADOE agreement with the DVLA. YOU have an obligation to provide this. This may be the same as the data BW legal holds on me, but that is irrelevant.

As a data controller, you are required by law to account for my personal data's location and to hold it safe. The liability for its safe keeping is yours. If you no longer have this data then you are in breach of your obligation to keep my data safe. Your original deadline still applies, regardless of your flawed response, and your failure to comply will be flagged to the ICO.

I note your suggestion that I make a SAR to BW Legal, but, regardless of the above information, please be advised that they have an obligation under Pre-Action Protocols to provide me with copies of any evidence that they intend to rely on to support their claim against me, so a SAR in this instance would be neither necessary nor appropriate."

Awaiting a reply, but as I have been using the 'Resolver' service to conduct my complaint, I now have the opportunity to escalate it to POPLA. I am in two minds about whether to do that now, or to wait and see what they come back with in response to the above
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nosferatu1001
post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 10:28
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 20,105
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Member No.: 15,642



So you respond back and state:
1) if you are claiming you have fully complied with teh SAR, this means you have never sent out a Notice to Keeper, and there is no possibilty of any keeper liability . PLease confirm this. If you have NOT fully complied with the SAR< and at a later point a NtK is produced as part of any proceedings, your flouting of the DPA2018 will be brought to the courts attention as unreasonable behaviour, and an imedaite complaint will be raised with the ICO. You have been warned.
2) As far as pOPLA goes, you can bang in an appeal stating that NCP, by virture of their SAR ersponse, have CONFIRMED no NtK was ever sent to you. As this means they have no possibilty of holding you liabel as Keeper under POFA, the appeal must be upheld

As this is NCPs OWN evidence in the form of a SAR response, no "digital" NTK "example" can serve to refute it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Macapaca
post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 10:55
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 430
Joined: 10 Oct 2017
Member No.: 94,458



Nice one Nosferatu! I like that response.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MickW
post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 12:56
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 76
Joined: 12 Feb 2012
Member No.: 53,100



Thanks Nosferatu will be sending that across in a jiffy smile.gif Think I might wait to see how they respond to that before the POPLA appeal - give 'em enough rope etc!

In the meantime they have responded to my last message (as per post #17) with this nonsense:

"Subject access requests entitles (sic) you to a copy of the information that the company 'holds' on you.
'Holds' is the key word, you are referring to information which we have accessed via the DVLA. If you wish to submit a SAR to the DVLA to find out more about this information (as they are the data controller in this instance), please do.
Also, please review our website notice that explains how we process personal data in the PCN process- https://www.ncp.co.uk/help-centre/pcn/pcn-d...ction-act-2018/

You have already received all the information we 'hold' on you. Therefore, I'm going to close your SAR and mark it as completed."
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

6 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Saturday, 23rd March 2019 - 15:53
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.