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FightBack Forums _ Private Parking Tickets & Clamping _ ES parking enforcement "Leaving site" unfair charge

Posted by: Unfairly_Photoshopped Thu, 19 Jul 2018 - 02:01
Post #1400246

I received a parking charge notice in the post from a company called ES Parking Enforcement.

The car park in question has recently been taken over by them, so their rules have only been in effect for a few months.

Parking at the site has always been free, but the charge is "leaving the site"

Of the small group of shops adjacent to the car park, it seems only the 3 that face into the car park are considered "on
site". The other shops have their rear entrances directly on the car park, but face out into the street, to a wide
pavement/pedestrian area joined to the car park with a footpath. These are apparently "off site"

They have been agressively charging everyone, even the staff that work at the retail outlets.

I have receipts/evidence of purchases from the "on site" shops both before and after the incident time quoted on the PCN.

all their signs are mounted 8 feet up and you have to get quite close and crane your neck to read them. On site and off
site shops are NOT defined on the signs.

i've been trying to read up on the laws and my rights, but obviously time is tight, and it's all so confusing.

from browsing the forum, it seems like an appeal to ES parking, and then the IAS, or any IPC affiliated company would be a waste of time (the phrase "kangaroo court" comes up a lot)

I would really appreciate your help, is there anything i can do in this situation?

https://imageshack.com/i/pm7zdtuQj

https://imageshack.com/i/po5CY5caj

Posted by: emanresu Thu, 19 Jul 2018 - 05:31
Post #1400251

I can see the tip of a Lidl sign there. Is this the Preston one or the Newcastle-u-Lyne one?

There are threads and wins for the site.

Posted by: ostell Thu, 19 Jul 2018 - 07:50
Post #1400271

Would help to see the sign that was on site and be told the dates on the NTK http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted anyway.

Sirs

Ref PCN xxxxx VRM yyyyyy

I am the registered keeper of the above vehicle and am in receipt of the PCN you issued. I have no liability on this matter as you have failed to meet the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to give the warning to the keeper, contrary to section 9 (2) (f) of the Act. You cannot therefore transfer liability from the driver at the time to me.

There is no legal requirement to identify the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

May I also refer you to the case of VCS v Ibbotson in the Scunthorpe CC, SE09849?

Yours etc.



It's IPC so don't even think of appealing to the IAS when offered.

Posted by: Unfairly_Photoshopped Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 13:58
Post #1400740

This is in Manchester, it's an Aldi sign, but the Aldi shut down or moved a while ago, which is when I guess the car park changed hands.

Ostell, could you elaborate on how the PCN does not comply with POFA? I'm afraid I'm having some trouble understanding.

I'll get some clear pics of the sign uploaded tonight, at work on mobile right now.

Incident date was 26/06, date of sending 09/07

Posted by: emanresu Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 14:09
Post #1400745

Is this Seymour Grove?

There is the issue of "what premises" if the store is closed. Which premises did the sign refer to, and were they still in business. May be another impossibility to meet the terms on the signs, which we've seen with other ES tickets.

ES have a track record of entrapment which is against their Code of Practice but no sanction is ever levied.

Posted by: ostell Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 14:49
Post #1400756

QUOTE (Unfairly_Photoshopped @ Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 14:58) *
Ostell, could you elaborate on how the PCN does not comply with POFA? I'm afraid I'm having some trouble understanding.


Did you look at POFA and did you find 9 (2) (f) and did you find that wording on the NTK?

To claim keeper liability all the itnes in 9 (2) MUST be in the NTK.

Posted by: Umkomaas Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 15:10
Post #1400766

Who has contracted ESPEL to operate at the car park? Some enquiries in that direction might help.

Posted by: Unfairly_Photoshopped Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 17:12
Post #1400816

So POFA 9 (2) (f) states:

The notice must-

(f)warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given—
(i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and
(ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver,

The PCN states-

"Date of sending: 09/07/18"
"Payment is now required in the sum of £100 within 28 days of the issue date i.e. no later than 06/08/2018"
"at the time of this notice we do not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver"

so i don't understand where they are in contravention of it.

emanresu - Yes, this is Seymour Grove. Damn, if i give you any more details, you'll figure out the size of my underwear!

Here's what the signs say:

https://imageshack.com/i/pnSJtEVZj

Posted by: Redivi Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 17:37
Post #1400829

That's why this forum is more effective than any solicitor

We know the companies, the personalities, their individual practices and their honeypots

Posted by: ostell Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 20:58
Post #1400885

9 (2) (f) is not there What is there is a bastardization of 9 (2) (e)

Posted by: Dave65 Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 09:47
Post #1400963

Can`t make out any warning of ANPR camera monitoring

Posted by: Unfairly_Photoshopped Mon, 23 Jul 2018 - 17:03
Post #1401612

There is no ANPR, it's just a guy in an unmarked car with a camera taking pictures of people on the car park.

I found the landowner:

Manchester Property Group
(MCR Property Group)
MCRProperty.com

Posted by: nosferatu1001 Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 07:43
Post #1401756

You missed the last part of 92f

The notice must-

(f)warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given—
(i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and
(ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver,


Does it warn the keeper that after 29 days from the day it is given, 28 days from the day after, the keeper will be liable? Yes or No.

Posted by: The Slithy Tove Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 16:48
Post #1401974

QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 08:43) *
Does it warn the keeper that after 29 days from the day it is given, 28 days from the day after, the keeper will be liable? Yes or No.

From what I can see of the PCN, I would say it's a "no". Oh dear, how sad, never mind.

Posted by: Churchmouse Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 18:04
Post #1401990

QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 08:43) *
You missed the last part of 92f

The notice must-

(f)warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given—
(i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and
(ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver,


Does it warn the keeper that after 29 days from the day it is given, 28 days from the day after, the keeper will be liable? Yes or No.

This is the language from POFA that follows the comma in the quoted language above:
QUOTE
the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid;

Without that, they have not "warned the keeper" about his/her liability for the driver's heinous actions. It's arguably the most important part of POFA, because it is the part that warns the RK that the liability of another person can be transferred onto them (a highly unusual legal result). It is astonishing that, six years after POFA was enacted, PPCs still cannot get their NtKs right...

--Churchmouse

Posted by: Redivi Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 18:09
Post #1401992

Yes

Beats me why the two trade associations still haven't provided standard wording for their members' parking notices and signs

Posted by: Umkomaas Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 21:35
Post #1402052

QUOTE
It is astonishing that, six years after POFA was enacted, PPCs still cannot get their NtKs right...

Astonishing, maybe. Predictable, more likely.

Intellectual requirements are now a bit more exacting than crawling under a car and crunching on a clamp!

Posted by: Unfairly_Photoshopped Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 22:20
Post #1402458

Ok, so I'm going to send the letter as recommended by ostell, but should I send it by post, or email?

With email, surely I would have a definite record of what I sent, and when I sent it?

The PCN says I must complain directly by writing to the address at the top of the letter. There is no address at the top on either side (save my own)
There is an address on the "payment slip" at the bottom, and a section on the back where complaints are referred to a website, which goes to their online appeals portal and asks for more info, which is pretty sneaky imho.

The only email address seems to be their "data protection officer"


Posted by: Redivi Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 22:32
Post #1402462

Use the Online portal but take care with any questions that ask you to identify the driver

Posted by: ostell Thu, 26 Jul 2018 - 07:36
Post #1402495

And take a screen print of what you send.

Posted by: nosferatu1001 Thu, 26 Jul 2018 - 07:42
Post #1402497

And of coruse, if none of the options directly apply, you just add to the text of the appeal that their stupid website required you to select an option, none of which applied, and in fact....

Posted by: Ladida Thu, 26 Jul 2018 - 10:24
Post #1402543

Edited and will follow advice below.

Posted by: Redivi Thu, 26 Jul 2018 - 10:31
Post #1402548

QUOTE (Ladida @ Thu, 26 Jul 2018 - 11:24) *
I am also in the same position, I received a notice about leaving this site.

I have receipts from an on site shop and from the time on my receipt to the time on the images they captured is around 3 minutes.

I am in two minds whether to state my case with that as it's ridiculous or go with the template suggested about not being liable as keeper.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

The Forum has a one-case-one-thread rule

Please start your own thread

Posted by: ManxRed Thu, 26 Jul 2018 - 10:34
Post #1402549

Firstly, can you start your own thread (but feel free to place a link to this one), as we have a one-case/one-thread rule.

Secondly, edit your post, and be careful on the wording of the new thread to ensure that the driver is referred to as 'the driver'.

Thirdly, ES Parking won't give a stuff about the driver's receipt (although you should include this as part of the appeal), which is why you need to also include the stuff about not being liable as keeper as a belt and braces approach.

You'll be surprised at how uncaring the parking company is about whether you are in the right or not. They just want your money, thanks very much.

Posted by: qwerty2468 Sat, 22 Sep 2018 - 20:18
Post #1418881

Does the op have an update of their appeal?

Posted by: Unfairly_Photoshopped Sat, 29 Sep 2018 - 22:57
Post #1420942

Hi all, so I went through the online appeal portal with the message provided by ostell about their "fine" not confirming to POFA.

About a month later, I received a letter telling me my appeal has been rejected, along with an explanation of why they thought leaving the site was a bad thing (all BS) and with no mention of any point that I raised.

The letter really gives three impression that they didn't even read the appeal at all.

Since then I have received nothing and will continue to ignore anything that comes until/if I get a court summons.

Posted by: cabbyman Sun, 30 Sep 2018 - 05:42
Post #1420953

You will now get an avalanche of paper from debt collectors and Gladstones.

If you get one from Gladstones requiring you to pay DRP, come back for a letter to send to Gladstones regarding their letterhead being used.

If you get a letter before claim, or similar, from Gladstones, come back here. This must be answered.

If you get a court claim, come back here.

All of the above will happen in due course. You now need to get reading the rest of the forum, maybe even joining in some threads, to hone your skills and knowledge of the process. This will build your confidence for the ensuing battle and your eventual [probable] win! Lots of work to do.

Posted by: ostell Sun, 30 Sep 2018 - 08:32
Post #1420962

They nearly always reject an appeal, especially as they know that the next stage, an appeal to the IAS, will also be rejected. How else would they get their monet if they accepted appeals.

Posted by: nosferatu1001 Mon, 1 Oct 2018 - 10:49
Post #1421188

Cabbyman - Gladstones have finally worked out e know their scam, and are saying, if you ask htem, that tey DID provide authority to use their letterhead. Youd have no way of proving it, I dont think, as they can claim there is a general agreement to allow it, not tied to any individual case, and so DSAR would be useless.

Posted by: Thepeaman Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 21:26
Post #1424367

Hi recently received the same PCN as Unfairly_Photoshopped from the same car park. I sent the letter suggested by Ostell and have just received a letter rejecting my 'Appeal' which sound very similar to the one sent to U_P.

I understand how they seem to have made a mess of the POFA but I'm concerned that they will still continue to pursue me. Does this not constitute harassment if they know they would lose the case in Court.

Also can I request any debt collectors acting on their behalf to remove my details from their databases as they do not have my permission or the authority from a court

Thanks for assistance

Posted by: ostell Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 21:29
Post #1424370

Please start your own thread so as not to cause confusion

Posted by: parkours Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 11:40
Post #1442692

QUOTE (Unfairly_Photoshopped @ Sat, 29 Sep 2018 - 22:57) *
Hi all, so I went through the online appeal portal with the message provided by ostell about their "fine" not confirming to POFA.

About a month later, I received a letter telling me my appeal has been rejected, along with an explanation of why they thought leaving the site was a bad thing (all BS) and with no mention of any point that I raised.

The letter really gives three impression that they didn't even read the appeal at all.

Since then I have received nothing and will continue to ignore anything that comes until/if I get a court summons.


Hi Mate, I wonder if you had any correspondence from anyone about this since then.......?
Have you been to court or anything like that? would love to hear back from you

basically this is occurred to me, and probably will get another letter, as I parked here to use the shops across the road.

Posted by: parkours Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 11:52
Post #1442695

QUOTE (Unfairly_Photoshopped @ Thu, 19 Jul 2018 - 02:01) *
I received a parking charge notice in the post from a company called ES Parking Enforcement.

The car park in question has recently been taken over by them, so their rules have only been in effect for a few months.

Parking at the site has always been free, but the charge is "leaving the site"

Of the small group of shops adjacent to the car park, it seems only the 3 that face into the car park are considered "on
site". The other shops have their rear entrances directly on the car park, but face out into the street, to a wide
pavement/pedestrian area joined to the car park with a footpath. These are apparently "off site"

They have been agressively charging everyone, even the staff that work at the retail outlets.

I have receipts/evidence of purchases from the "on site" shops both before and after the incident time quoted on the PCN.

all their signs are mounted 8 feet up and you have to get quite close and crane your neck to read them. On site and off
site shops are NOT defined on the signs.

i've been trying to read up on the laws and my rights, but obviously time is tight, and it's all so confusing.

from browsing the forum, it seems like an appeal to ES parking, and then the IAS, or any IPC affiliated company would be a waste of time (the phrase "kangaroo court" comes up a lot)

I would really appreciate your help, is there anything i can do in this situation?

https://imageshack.com/i/pm7zdtuQj

https://imageshack.com/i/po5CY5caj



As you cans the letter has also changed , and it now mentioned the 28days

 

Posted by: SchoolRunMum Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 13:02
Post #1442715

It vaguely mentions 28 days but still completely omits anything resembling the 9(2)f keeper liability warning.

That is a non-POFA Notice to Keeper. You nee to start your own thread about this when you get a letter before claim, parkours.

Posted by: parkours Thu, 27 Dec 2018 - 08:34
Post #1445621

QUOTE (Unfairly_Photoshopped @ Sat, 29 Sep 2018 - 22:57) *
Hi all, so I went through the online appeal portal with the message provided by ostell about their "fine" not confirming to POFA.

About a month later, I received a letter telling me my appeal has been rejected, along with an explanation of why they thought leaving the site was a bad thing (all BS) and with no mention of any point that I raised.

The letter really gives three impression that they didn't even read the appeal at all.

Since then I have received nothing and will continue to ignore anything that comes until/if I get a court summons.



can you give us an update as to what happened since then? @Unfairly_Photoshopped

Posted by: Redivi Thu, 27 Dec 2018 - 10:11
Post #1445629

According to his profile, he hasn't returned to the site since 1 October

That can mean that nothing has happened or that he's caved in to avoid the letters

You could try sending a PM (Private message)

Posted by: Tankmania Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 12:48
Post #1473903

ANPR camera is affixed above Grove Newsagents shop

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