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PCN (Lambeth Parking) sent after 71 days!
coolcat123
post Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 12:30
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Hi, I received the following PCN 71 days after the contravention: https://ibb.co/r5VbcNV. I was driving my company car, which is registered at my office address (it is my own company).

The contravention code was 52m (Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles). To be honest, I only turned into the street as there was literally no other option where I could turn due to cars blocking all other avenues. I have no way of proving this however.

Either way, I understand that the PCN needs to be issued within 28 days for it to be valid. Given that it's significantly over that time limit, do I have grounds to appeal this PCN and have it cancelled?

Thanks very much for your help!
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post Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 12:30
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DWMB2
post Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 12:32
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This is a council ticket, not a private parking charge. I've asked a mod to move this to the right part of the forum for you.


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coolcat123
post Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 12:46
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QUOTE (DWMB2 @ Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 13:32) *
This is a council ticket, not a private parking charge. I've asked a mod to move this to the right part of the forum for you.



Ah, sorry about that!
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stamfordman
post Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 12:59
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Is the car leased. If so the PCN was sent to the lease co first as they are usually the registered keeper. If your company is the keeper as per the V5C then it's out of time.
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cp8759
post Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 13:47
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If the car is leased, the PCN to your company is probably invalid anyway.


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coolcat123
post Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 14:27
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 13:59) *
Is the car leased. If so the PCN was sent to the lease co first as they are usually the registered keeper. If your company is the keeper as per the V5C then it's out of time.



Understood. In that case, am I just better off paying the fine?
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cp8759
post Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 14:44
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QUOTE (coolcat123 @ Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 15:27) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 13:59) *
Is the car leased. If so the PCN was sent to the lease co first as they are usually the registered keeper. If your company is the keeper as per the V5C then it's out of time.



Understood. In that case, am I just better off paying the fine?

In what case? I've just told you that if the car is leased you might be able to win regardless of anything else.


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coolcat123
post Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 15:15
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 15:44) *
QUOTE (coolcat123 @ Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 15:27) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 13:59) *
Is the car leased. If so the PCN was sent to the lease co first as they are usually the registered keeper. If your company is the keeper as per the V5C then it's out of time.



Understood. In that case, am I just better off paying the fine?

In what case? I've just told you that if the car is leased you might be able to win regardless of anything else.



Ah ok, how best do you think I should proceed?!
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cp8759
post Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 15:38
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QUOTE (coolcat123 @ Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 16:15) *
Ah ok, how best do you think I should proceed?!

What's the name of the lease company?


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Neil B
post Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 16:49
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QUOTE (coolcat123 @ Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 16:15) *
Ah ok, how best do you think I should proceed?!

You still haven't answered the question; is it leased?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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coolcat123
post Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 21:05
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Apologies, yes it is leased.
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Neil B
post Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 21:16
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From what company?

You earlier said it was registered to your address? Do you hold the V5C?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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coolcat123
post Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 23:09
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 22:16) *
From what company?

You earlier said it was registered to your address? Do you hold the V5C?



CV Vehicle Solutions - not my company. I don't believe I hold the V5C.
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Incandescent
post Sat, 18 Sep 2021 - 18:07
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QUOTE
Either way, I understand that the PCN needs to be issued within 28 days for it to be valid.

Indeed, correct they have 28 days from contravention date to issue a PCN
But that PCN must be sent to the name and address on the V5. If this is a hire/lease company, they can submit reps that they are a hire company and provide your name and address. They have 28 days to respond to the PCN, so already we have 56 days defined in the process. The first PCN is cancelled after the council have considered those reps, and they then have another 28 days to issue a second PCN, (to you).

And furthermore, from detecting the contravention, 14 days is allowed for obtaining the name and address from the DVLA on quoting the reg. number. This is via an on-line request-reply process. So when the first PCN is received by the hire company, the 28 days they have to reply is from date of service of the PCN, NOT the contravention date. So one can add on a few days there.

So you can see the days can add-up very quickly. and the council may be able to explain it away.

The key date is the date of cancellation of PCN 1. You'll have to find this out from your lease company. Only then will you know if they are late in issuing the PCN you have received. However, they may never have received a notice of cancellation, but should be able to tell you when the submitted their reps. The council are probably late, but their attitude is essentially "so what ?" because most late PCNs get paid anyway as people are woefully ignorant of the law. So if you win, they'll just shrug their shoulders as the cash from the other 99% who cough-up is more than sufficient.

No harm done trying to make them do some work for their money, but until we get some key facts, a win is not a foregone conclusion, I'm afraid

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 - 19:06
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Neil B
post Sat, 18 Sep 2021 - 21:46
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We have a lot of success against PCNs where vehicles are leased.
Just chill and we'll get back to you.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Sat, 18 Sep 2021 - 23:15
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QUOTE (coolcat123 @ Fri, 17 Sep 2021 - 16:15) *
Ah ok, how best do you think I should proceed?!

Contact the lease co, by e-mail. Ask them these questions >

> What was the date of the date of the original PCN to them?

> The date on which they made representations to Lambeth? (to ask for transfer of liability)

> What evidence they submitted to Lambeth to claim transfer of liability? (ask for a copy)

> The date on which Lambeth notified them that their PCN was cancelled?*

* Don't be surprised if they can't answer that last one. Most councils forget this mandatory step and you are likely to win just based
on that.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Sun, 19 Sep 2021 - 06:23
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OP, 6(2)(a) applies in your case.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/section/6/enacted

The meaning upon which we focus is 'has been cancelled' which is a condition precedent for them to issue another PCN, in this case to you.

Adjudicators seem to accept that in order to be 'cancelled' formal notice of this (a Notice of Acceptance) must be sent to the actual owner by the authority (you are never the owner, simply the owner for the singular purposes of the procedures of this Act), hence bullet point 4 in NeilB's post above.
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cp8759
post Sun, 19 Sep 2021 - 18:03
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Ask the lease company the questions listed by Neil, we've been winning lease cases without exception for months now so providing you follow our advice, it's hard to see how you could lose.


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coolcat123
post Mon, 20 Sep 2021 - 13:44
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 19 Sep 2021 - 19:03) *
Ask the lease company the questions listed by Neil, we've been winning lease cases without exception for months now so providing you follow our advice, it's hard to see how you could lose.


Thanks - I've called the company today and have asked them the questions above. They said they need to dig around a bit to provide answers, but hope to have them in the next day or two.
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coolcat123
post Thu, 23 Sep 2021 - 14:34
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I have responses from the leasing co. Please see below:

1) Date of PCN? The PCN was issued 12/7/2021 and we received the PCN on the 17/7/2021

2) Date we contacted Lambeth to ask for transfer of liability? We transferred liability on the 23/7/2021

3) What evidence we submitted to transfer liability? They sent a letter (includes my personal info, so haven't attached it here) - basically says "We are writing with regards to the above fine. Would you please note that at the time of the offence the vehicle was on a long term lease with: XXXX . Would you please accept this as our representation to transfer liability and contact the above mentioned individual."

4) Date Lambeth advised original PCN was cancelled. We have not received any cancellation from the issuing authority.
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