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Drive off
Billme
post Tue, 3 May 2011 - 11:23
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Parked my car yesterday in a pay and display and it being a Bank Holiday I assumed free parking so did not buy a ticket.
When I returned a CEO was in the process of writing a ticket. I wished her good day and drove off before she could issue it.

I understand that the parking laws have now changed. Can anyone please explain to me the situation re a drive off and if there are any grounds to fight the ticket?
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post Tue, 3 May 2011 - 11:23
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orford
post Tue, 3 May 2011 - 11:49
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If the CEO is prevented from serving the PCN either on the vehicle or handing it to the driver, it can be served subsequently by post.
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Glacier2
post Tue, 3 May 2011 - 12:41
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What council is this?
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Billme
post Tue, 3 May 2011 - 12:56
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Sandwell' West Bromwich
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Glacier2
post Tue, 3 May 2011 - 13:30
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They might not do regulation 10 PCNs. Watch out in case they send you a Notice to Owner in about 1 months time.
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Billme
post Tue, 3 May 2011 - 15:32
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I assume that a reg 10 pcn is one that is posted?
How do I find out whether or not this Council issues reg 10 pcn's?
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bama
post Tue, 3 May 2011 - 15:38
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It should be a reg 10.
some councils that don't issue Reg 10s (e.g Westminster) seem to send out Reg 9s for drive offs - as of course the CEO always seems to say that they served did the PCN.

have to wait and see really.


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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Glacier2
post Tue, 3 May 2011 - 16:03
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Handed to driver is the usual trick they pull.
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Mister Ross
post Tue, 3 May 2011 - 16:21
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QUOTE (Glacier2 @ Tue, 3 May 2011 - 17:03) *
Handed to driver is the usual trick they pull.



What's the best way of countering that? I assume there is no requirement for photographic evidence, but what would normally happen in the event of adjudication should it all boil down to CEO's word vs yours?
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Glacier2
post Tue, 3 May 2011 - 16:25
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It would come down to who is more credible. If you are honest and sincere the adjudicator will give you the benefit of the doubt.
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Billme
post Wed, 4 May 2011 - 07:33
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In the absence of photographic evidence would this not lend weight to the cancellation of the ticket?

Having previously received a phantom ticket, I know for a fact that this particular Councils' parking back office staff and front line CEO's are thoroughly dishonest. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they didn't issue a PCN but hit me with a NTO!
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Glacier2
post Wed, 4 May 2011 - 07:48
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QUOTE
In the absence of photographic evidence would this not lend weight to the cancellation of the ticket?

You will have to force it all the way to adjudication. There is no chance of the council seeing sense beforehand.

QUOTE
Having previously received a phantom ticket, I know for a fact that this particular Councils' parking back office staff and front line CEO's are thoroughly dishonest. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they didn't issue a PCN but hit me with a NTO!

It would not surprise me either.
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bama
post Wed, 4 May 2011 - 10:12
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absence of pics when its the LA's policy to take pics has gone against them in the past

Steven Mark Pasha v London Borough of Waltham Forest
Case No. : 2090279728



--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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clark_kent
post Wed, 4 May 2011 - 18:52
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QUOTE (bama @ Wed, 4 May 2011 - 11:12) *
absence of pics when its the LA's policy to take pics has gone against them in the past

Steven Mark Pasha v London Borough of Waltham Forest
Case No. : 2090279728



How can you take pics if the car has driven away??
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bama
post Wed, 4 May 2011 - 19:07
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err, before issuing the ticket.

we will wait and see if a reg 10 or a reg 9 appears. If its a reg 9 the absence of pics gets much stronger of course.
a point that applies to all council that issue Reg 9s for drive aways e.g Westmonster


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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Glacier2
post Wed, 4 May 2011 - 19:20
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QUOTE
Westmonster

How apt! biggrin.gif
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clark_kent
post Wed, 4 May 2011 - 20:03
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QUOTE (bama @ Wed, 4 May 2011 - 20:07) *
err, before issuing the ticket.

we will wait and see if a reg 10 or a reg 9 appears. If its a reg 9 the absence of pics gets much stronger of course.
a point that applies to all council that issue Reg 9s for drive aways e.g Westmonster



Why would you take photos if you haven't issued a PCN?
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alloageorge
post Wed, 4 May 2011 - 20:53
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QUOTE (clark_kent @ Wed, 4 May 2011 - 21:03) *
QUOTE (bama @ Wed, 4 May 2011 - 20:07) *
err, before issuing the ticket.

we will wait and see if a reg 10 or a reg 9 appears. If its a reg 9 the absence of pics gets much stronger of course.
a point that applies to all council that issue Reg 9s for drive aways e.g Westmonster



Why would you take photos if you haven't issued a PCN?

you wouldnt,which is what op would use
if they receive an nto for a reg 9 pcn.
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bama
post Wed, 4 May 2011 - 21:31
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you would to show the contravention.
paradoxical as it may seem taking them after issuing the PCN runs the risk of a drive off with a validly served reg 9 and no photo evidence which makes it harder for the council top prove its case. It only seems paradoxical as we are so used to seeing phantom PCNs.

the obvious procedure is take a few snaps of the vehicle in contravention then take one with the PCN attached (not just an envelope) and to leave the PCN attached. In an area where they do not or can not issue reg 10s they may not follow this procedure - for reasons one can only guess at....

We need to wait to see if a reg 9 or reg 10 turns up.


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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Billme
post Thu, 5 May 2011 - 17:09
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Thanks all for your input and advice. I intend to fight this potential ticket.


Bama thanks:...Steven Mark Pasha v London Borough of Waltham Forest Case No. : 2090279728

With regard to Sanwells' code of practice re issuing tickets in a drive off situatiation this seems to remain undeveloped.

"http://www.sandwell.gov.uk/info/200072/parking/968/traffic_management_act_2004_parking

New powers are also given to the enforcement authority to issue a Penalty Charge Notice by post if the contravention has been observed by an approved device (fixed camera, similar to those in use to enforce speed limits), or if the parking attendant is unable to serve the Penalty Charge Notice because he or she was prevented from doing so by some person or because the vehicle was driven away.

Before issuing any Penalty Charge Notices because the attendant had not been able to serve it, Sandwell Council will develop a code of practice relating to the evidence which the attendant is required to have collected to demonstrate that the issue of a Penalty Charge Notice in these circumstances is warranted."


Can you please advise what is now the best course of action.....sit tight and wait for a postal PCN, failing that a NTO; or should I make contact with this Council now and enquire whether or not a ticket is outstanding?

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