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Electric Bikes.
Korting
post Tue, 25 Dec 2018 - 23:29
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Take a look at this: https://www.li.me/electric-assist-bike?fbcl...9IOQOQr7CfrIE-c

Are these not mechanically propelled vehicles? if so, shouldn't the rider be licensed and subject to the same laws as scooters and cars?
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post Tue, 25 Dec 2018 - 23:29
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southpaw82
post Tue, 25 Dec 2018 - 23:46
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QUOTE (Korting @ Tue, 25 Dec 2018 - 23:29) *
Take a look at this: https://www.li.me/electric-assist-bike?fbcl...9IOQOQr7CfrIE-c

Are these not mechanically propelled vehicles? if so, shouldn't the rider be licensed and subject to the same laws as scooters and cars?

No, due s 189(1)(c) of the Road Traffic Act 1988 and the Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles Regulations 1983.


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The Rookie
post Wed, 26 Dec 2018 - 06:26
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As long as they comply with the requirements for an electrically assisted cycle (250W max and assist limited to 25kph/14.8mph) and having pedals that allow them to be used under normal pedal power then they are considered exactly the same as a wholly pedal powered cycle.

Yes there are a number around that aren’t legal, but that one, on the face of it, is.


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nigelbb
post Wed, 26 Dec 2018 - 07:39
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 26 Dec 2018 - 07:26) *
As long as they comply with the requirements for an electrically assisted cycle (250W max and assist limited to 25kph/14.8mph) and having pedals that allow them to be used under normal pedal power then they are considered exactly the same as a wholly pedal powered cycle.

Yes there are a number around that aren’t legal, but that one, on the face of it, is.

As the advertised price is $1/unlock + $0.15/min to ride it's not only expensive but it seems unlikely it's going to be seen on UK roads.


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Fredd
post Wed, 26 Dec 2018 - 10:00
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QUOTE (nigelbb @ Wed, 26 Dec 2018 - 07:39) *
As the advertised price is $1/unlock + $0.15/min to ride it's not only expensive but it seems unlikely it's going to be seen on UK roads.

They're in a number of other European cities, so I don't see why not. OTOH the groups they seem most likely to appeal to, casual riders/tourists, are probably the ones least likely to want to brave the traffic of our major cities, so who knows how successful they would be?


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nigelbb
post Wed, 26 Dec 2018 - 11:24
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QUOTE (Fredd @ Wed, 26 Dec 2018 - 11:00) *
QUOTE (nigelbb @ Wed, 26 Dec 2018 - 07:39) *
As the advertised price is $1/unlock + $0.15/min to ride it's not only expensive but it seems unlikely it's going to be seen on UK roads.

They're in a number of other European cities, so I don't see why not. OTOH the groups they seem most likely to appeal to, casual riders/tourists, are probably the ones least likely to want to brave the traffic of our major cities, so who knows how successful they would be?

Apparently they are already here in Milton Keynes & London. https://www.li.me/blog/lime-uk-electric-ass...s-launch-london

£10 for 60 minutes use seems expensive considering in London a Boris Bike costs £2 for 24 hours & a bus journey £1.50 & the tube £2.90.

According to the website there are no docking stations & they charge the batteries remotely then replace them as required. Presumably there are teams of technicians cycling round carrying replacement batteries.

It seems that dockless non-electric bicycle hire hasn't gone down too well in the UK https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/au...from-uk-streets

This post has been edited by nigelbb: Wed, 26 Dec 2018 - 11:27


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British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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Churchmouse
post Wed, 26 Dec 2018 - 12:07
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QUOTE (Korting @ Tue, 25 Dec 2018 - 23:29) *
Take a look at this: https://www.li.me/electric-assist-bike?fbcl...9IOQOQr7CfrIE-c

Are these not mechanically propelled vehicles? if so, shouldn't the rider be licensed and subject to the same laws as scooters and cars?

Judging by the increasing number of electric scooters I see plying the roads/pavements of London, that law isn't especially well enforced. I wonder if the next step will be legislative change, rather than enforcement?

--Churchmouse
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notmeatloaf
post Wed, 26 Dec 2018 - 13:18
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The EU regs also include an exemption with no power/speed restriction for (from memory) bikes designed and intended for off road use, even if used on the road.

If I was in the market I would build my own, and it would definitely be a MTB. As it is I don't really see the point (unless you live in High Wycombe on Cock Lane - never again). A road bike is still quicker up most hills and you can recharge it with fig rolls.
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The Rookie
post Wed, 26 Dec 2018 - 15:37
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The issue is that to use a bike in a public place in the UK, if it’s not a pedal cycle it will need to be insured and the rider licenced, you’ll probably find getting insurance almost impossible unless it’s built to road legal electric motorbike status, which some people have done.


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captain swoop
post Wed, 26 Dec 2018 - 23:31
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Wed, 26 Dec 2018 - 13:18) *
The EU regs also include an exemption with no power/speed restriction for (from memory) bikes designed and intended for off road use, even if used on the road.

If I was in the market I would build my own, and it would definitely be a MTB. As it is I don't really see the point (unless you live in High Wycombe on Cock Lane - never again). A road bike is still quicker up most hills and you can recharge it with fig rolls.



In the UK it is the 250 watt limit for any road use.
You can buy off road bikes with higher powers but if you use them on the road anywhere you have to be able to switch them down.

Electric Mountain Bikes are getting popular among downhill Racers.The bikes they use are heavy and not well geared for climbing. they usually get taken to the top of the course by a vehicle or use a ski lift (in the mountains)
they are starting to use ebikes instead.
I have a couple of friends that have switched to ebikes for single tracking over the moors as the climb up out of the town to the moor top up the escarpment of the Cleveland Hills is brutal.

road ebike https://youtu.be/F8tV8cWeY3Y

offroad ebike https://youtu.be/jPbTAjg8HgQ

This post has been edited by captain swoop: Wed, 26 Dec 2018 - 23:34
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The Rookie
post Thu, 27 Dec 2018 - 07:16
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QUOTE (captain swoop @ Wed, 26 Dec 2018 - 23:31) *
In the UK it is the 250 watt limit for any road use.

Not just road, anywhere to which the public have access, which includes pretty much all off road trail centres, so where you would use them in a higher power mode isn’t clear to me?


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notmeatloaf
post Thu, 27 Dec 2018 - 16:23
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 26 Dec 2018 - 15:37) *
The issue is that to use a bike in a public place in the UK, if it’s not a pedal cycle it will need to be insured and the rider licenced, you’ll probably find getting insurance almost impossible unless it’s built to road legal electric motorbike status, which some people have done.

See here I totally disagree.

The EU regs make it clear what vehicles aren't regulated as

QUOTE
Article 2

Scope

1. This Regulation shall apply to all two- or three-wheel vehicles and quadricycles as categorised in Article 4 and Annex I (‘L-category vehicles’), that are intended to travel on public roads, including those designed and constructed in one or more stages, and to systems, components and separate technical units, as well as parts and equipment, designed and constructed for such vehicles.

This Regulation also applies to enduro motorcycles (L3e-AxE (x = 1, 2 or 3)), trial motorcycles (L3e-AxT (x = 1, 2 or 3)) and heavy all terrain quads (L7e-B) as categorised in Article 4 and Annex I.

2. This Regulation does not apply to the following vehicles:

(a)

vehicles with a maximum design speed not exceeding 6 km/h;

(b)

vehicles exclusively intended for use by the physically handicapped;

©

vehicles exclusively intended for pedestrian control;

(d)

vehicles exclusively intended for use in competition;

(e)

vehicles designed and constructed for use by the armed services, civil defence, fire services, forces responsible for maintaining public order and emergency medical services;

(f)

agricultural or forestry vehicles subject to Regulation (EU) No 167/2013 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 5 February 2013 on the approval and market surveillance of agricultural and forestry vehicles (22), machines subject to Directive 97/68/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 16 December 1997 on the approximation of the laws of the Member States relating to measures against the emission of gaseous and particulate pollutants from internal combustion engines to be installed in non-road mobile machinery (23) and Directive 2006/42/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 17 May 2006 on machinery (24) and motor vehicles subject to Directive 2007/46/EC;

(g)

vehicles primarily intended for off-road use and designed to travel on unpaved surfaces;

(h)

pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h;

(i)

self-balancing vehicles;

(j)

vehicles not equipped with at least one seating position;

(k)

vehicles equipped with any seating position of the driver or rider having an R-point height ≤ 540 mm in case of categories L1e, L3e and L4e or ≤ 400 mm in case of categories L2e, L5e, L6e and L7e.


I never know why people happily accept (h) should be treated as pedal cycles but not (g). I know there is some guff about how (g) require type approval even if exempt, however, seeing as you can't get them type approved that would seem to be clutching at straws.

Back in the day I made my own off road electric bike powered by two huge lead acid batteries. Great fun to ride. Got stopped by the police twice and sent on my way once I proved it was powered by electric.
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The Rookie
post Thu, 27 Dec 2018 - 16:31
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UK, law makes it clear that any motorised vehicle (and an ebike with more than 250W is a motorised vehicle) has to be insured and the driver/rider licenced when using it in a public place. The EU regs for higher powered ebike require them to be registered anyway and we have no capability for that in the UK (some countries do like Holland) either, so it has to be registered as a motorbike.

The regulation for the vehicle is harmonised, how they are regulated in use are down to different nations, for example Austria allows you to drive a quadrcycle without a driving licence (hence why they are nicknamed the drunk cars), we do not.


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notmeatloaf
post Thu, 27 Dec 2018 - 20:44
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What UK law?

That entire section of EU law is copied directly into UK law via The Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles (Amendment) Regulations 2015
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The Rookie
post Thu, 27 Dec 2018 - 20:46
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The RTA 1988 S143, a motor vehicle (which a high power ebike is) needs insurance to be driven on a road or other public place.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/143


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southpaw82
post Thu, 27 Dec 2018 - 21:04
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 27 Dec 2018 - 20:46) *
a motor vehicle (which a high power ebike is)

Is it?


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The Rookie
post Fri, 28 Dec 2018 - 16:34
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What is it if it’s not?

There have been previous legal cases surrounding non compliant ebikes that ruled them as motor vehicles and subject to the same requirements in terms of insurance and licensing as motorbikes.


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southpaw82
post Fri, 28 Dec 2018 - 17:22
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 28 Dec 2018 - 16:34) *
What is it if it’s not?

There have been previous legal cases surrounding non compliant ebikes that ruled them as motor vehicles and subject to the same requirements in terms of insurance and licensing as motorbikes.

Post 2.


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The Rookie
post Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 14:21
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You kind of missed that we were discussing non complaint bikes with more power.... Post #8 then Post #9 and Post#13, In Post #2 you refer to compliant bikes.


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southpaw82
post Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 17:09
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 14:21) *
You kind of missed that we were discussing non complaint bikes with more power.... Post #8 then Post #9 and Post#13, In Post #2 you refer to compliant bikes.

I didn’t miss it at all. You asserted it was a motor vehicle and I asked you to confirm that (i.e. by saying why it’s outside of the scope of the regulations). You simply repeated your assertion. I get the impression it’s because of the power used by the bike but that’s just a guess on my part.


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