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Fluttered Parking Ticket, Help with PCN issued after ticket turned over
jl79
post Wed, 20 Oct 2021 - 14:09
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Hi All,

I received a PCN late last month after paying for a ticket and leaving my vehicle parked in a bay.
On return to my vehicle I had received a PCN notice which I was suprised to receive. I looked at my ticket and realised that it had turned over on my dsahboard probably when I closed the door on removing my dog to take him for a stroll.

I have sent the authority an email saying that I wanted to challenge this notice and apologising for the innocent mistake and attached a copy of my ticket receipt etc.
They have responded with what I guess is their standard 'notice of rejection of challenge'.

I just wondered whether to pay the fine (which is what they want) or whether I have grounds to challenge this at all and I should wait until I receive the Notice to Owner'

Any help will be gatefully received

Thanks
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post Wed, 20 Oct 2021 - 14:09
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stamfordman
post Wed, 20 Oct 2021 - 14:12
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What council is this.

Post the PCN, council pics and their rejection.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like as space on forum is limited. https://imgbb.com has BBCode to embed pics on the forum. Set uploads not to autodelete if signed up and using https://imgbb.com Or use Google Docs etc.
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peodude
post Wed, 20 Oct 2021 - 14:29
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Is there a serial number on the back of the ticket to identify it?
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jl79
post Wed, 20 Oct 2021 - 15:22
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Sorry as I'm new to this, the images I am uploading do I need to blank out my personal information?

Thanks
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stamfordman
post Wed, 20 Oct 2021 - 16:07
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You only need to blank name and address. You can blank your car reg if you want.
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jl79
post Thu, 21 Oct 2021 - 06:40
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Hi

I hope this is correct, i have uploaded what I have.....

Thanks in advance for your help

https://ibb.co/album/4g4ycG

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stamfordman
post Thu, 21 Oct 2021 - 09:27
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Powys is in the Wales Penalty Processing Partnership and they play hardball on upturned tickets as below. This is contrary to government fairness guidance - maybe Wales has specific guidance.

Is there a serial number on the reverse of the ticket - you've posted the front twice.

https://www.wppp.org.uk/docs/WPPP%20CPE%20Procedures.pdf



This post has been edited by stamfordman: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 - 09:28
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jl79
post Thu, 21 Oct 2021 - 10:49
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Hi,

So if they will play hardball is it worth me pursuing?

The reverse of both slips is attached, it is just a co-op thing to get your money back if you shop.... there is a number but that is the same as on the front.

What really annoys me is that you have to put your car reg in to get a ticket so surely somewhere there is a record that one was bought?!

https://ibb.co/album/JR7C4f

Thanks
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peodude
post Thu, 21 Oct 2021 - 11:15
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QUOTE (jl79 @ Thu, 21 Oct 2021 - 11:49) *
The reverse of both slips is attached, it is just a co-op thing to get your money back if you shop.... there is a number but that is the same as on the front.

What really annoys me is that you have to put your car reg in to get a ticket so surely somewhere there is a record that one was bought?!


That's good, the serial number is all the proof you need that the ticket is the same one.
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stamfordman
post Thu, 21 Oct 2021 - 11:54
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QUOTE (peodude @ Thu, 21 Oct 2021 - 12:15) *
QUOTE (jl79 @ Thu, 21 Oct 2021 - 11:49) *
The reverse of both slips is attached, it is just a co-op thing to get your money back if you shop.... there is a number but that is the same as on the front.

What really annoys me is that you have to put your car reg in to get a ticket so surely somewhere there is a record that one was bought?!


That's good, the serial number is all the proof you need that the ticket is the same one.


Not the issue though as Wales councils say computer says no.
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jl79
post Thu, 21 Oct 2021 - 12:05
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So do I just have to accept this one and pay the fine?

If the Welsh are so strict sad.gif
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cp8759
post Thu, 21 Oct 2021 - 12:25
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I would wait for the Notice to Owner and make a representation asking them to exercise discretion notwithstanding their published policy, on the basis that the council has suffered no loss. They will almost certainly re-offer the discount anyway if they reject, and they might mess up the response, which might give you grounds to appeal to the tribunal.

Do you have the V5C, or is the car leased / hired?

This post has been edited by cp8759: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 - 12:25


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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stamfordman
post Thu, 21 Oct 2021 - 12:27
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 21 Oct 2021 - 13:25) *
I would wait for the Notice to Owner and make a representation asking them to exercise discretion notwithstanding their published policy, on the basis that the council has suffered no loss. They will almost certainly re-offer the discount anyway if they reject, and they might mess up the response, which might give you grounds to appeal to the tribunal.



I agree. They must be put to the test of fairness and not hide behind a blanket policy that removes their duty to consider.
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stamfordman
post Thu, 21 Oct 2021 - 14:10
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We need to see the council's pics. PM me the details and Ill check.
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jl79
post Thu, 21 Oct 2021 - 14:33
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 21 Oct 2021 - 15:10) *
We need to see the council's pics. PM me the details and Ill check.


I dont know what details you need, sorry
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stamfordman
post Thu, 21 Oct 2021 - 14:47
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QUOTE (jl79 @ Thu, 21 Oct 2021 - 15:33) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 21 Oct 2021 - 15:10) *
We need to see the council's pics. PM me the details and Ill check.


I dont know what details you need, sorry


just the car reg
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jl79
post Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 08:23
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I'll send you the details

This post has been edited by jl79: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 08:25
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hcandersen
post Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 08:48
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I'm surprised MMV has not posted, he's very hot on fettering.

You cannot find a clearer case of fettered discretion than this so-called policy.

IMO, it is unlawful.

May, may, may..not will, will, will.

Carry on and succeed.

Are you the registered keeper with current DVLA details?

If so, you will receive the NTO. Come back here when you do. I suggest a layered approach e.g. as they will see, the VRM on the serial-numbered ticket shows that the ticket was present in the car(we hope the photos will show) when the PCN was issued which proves that the parking charge had been paid. You accept that display is important to aid efficient enforcement, but it is an administrative requirement imposed by the council in order to prove payment of the parking charge, this being the primary requirement imposed upon car park users and that as this is not at issue you would request that the authority* exercise their discretion and cancel the ticket.
In this respect, since receiving the authority's initial rejection of your challenge you have had the opportunity to discover the Partnership's position on this matter which suggests that under no circumstances would any representations made in this regard be accepted. You cannot believe that this stance would be adopted by the Partnership irrespective of individual circumstances given that such an approach would be contrary to Statutory Guidance and the principle of acting fairly and you hope that your understanding of the position is incorrect and that independent consideration would be given to these representations.

But we're not there yet.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 10:06
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stamfordman
post Fri, 22 Oct 2021 - 09:03
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No pics online - I was hoping we'd have one showing the serial number. You can email them and ask for pics.

But hcanderson is right - this policy wrongly rules out the duty to consider discretion and we recommend you continue.
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