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Alleged Speeding M25 J16
speedfighter23
post Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 21:15
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Hi Guys,

Got an NIP from Surrey Police within the 14 days for allegedly 75 in a 60 temporary speed limit between M25 J15-J16.

Also it shows it as 3 minutes 40 seconds after being enforced.

What do you guys think I should do?

Thanks for the help!

My licence is 100% clean by the way and no speed awareness courses have been attended by me ever.

This post has been edited by speedfighter23: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 - 21:08


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post Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 21:15
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southpaw82
post Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 21:51
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Your defence is “I was speeding but not by as much as you say I was”?


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speedfighter23
post Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 21:55
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 21:51) *
Your defence is “I was speeding but not by as much as you say I was”?


Yes.
Would the 4 minutes be a valid defence or is it only an absolute 60 seconds?
Maybe I should just accept it and hope they offer me an SAC?


--------------------
Police Speeding Fines - Police 1 - speedfighter23 0
TFL traffic contraventions 0 - speedfighter23 2
Kensington and Chelsea 0 parking contraventions - speedfighter23 1
Brighton and Hove parking 0 - speedfighter23 1
Private PCN - Private Parking Solutions Limited 0 - speedfighter23 1

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0 Buckinghamshire Council - speedfighter23 1
0 TFL - speedfighter23 1

Result Pending:

1 Islington Council tyre puncture claim
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southpaw82
post Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 21:59
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QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 22:55) *
Yes.


Ok...

QUOTE
Would the 4 minutes be a valid defence


In what way?

QUOTE
Maybe I should just accept it and hope they offer me an SAC?

Well, it’s not looking good so far.


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speedfighter23
post Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 22:02
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 21:59) *
QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 22:55) *
Yes.


Ok...

QUOTE
Would the 4 minutes be a valid defence


In what way?

QUOTE
Maybe I should just accept it and hope they offer me an SAC?

Well, it’s not looking good so far.


Ok, I will send the NIP and let's see what they say.
Has there been any history of sending the police a letter asking for leniency and not getting prosecuted as this is an intent to prosecute and not one absolute?
I was indeed the driver in the Notice of Intended Prosecution as shown in the duly filled out form along with a letter.


This post has been edited by speedfighter23: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 - 21:08


--------------------
Police Speeding Fines - Police 1 - speedfighter23 0
TFL traffic contraventions 0 - speedfighter23 2
Kensington and Chelsea 0 parking contraventions - speedfighter23 1
Brighton and Hove parking 0 - speedfighter23 1
Private PCN - Private Parking Solutions Limited 0 - speedfighter23 1

Tyre Puncture Pothole Claims:
0 Buckinghamshire Council - speedfighter23 1
0 TFL - speedfighter23 1

Result Pending:

1 Islington Council tyre puncture claim
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southpaw82
post Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 22:07
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I don’t understand your reference to your speedometer - it won’t (legally can’t) show 70 if you were doing 75, so you can’t have thought you were observing the national speed limit.

Also, your reference to four minutes is odd - you would have travelled over 4 miles in that time at that speed, so what is the relevance?


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speedfighter23
post Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 22:12
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 22:07) *
I don’t understand your reference to your speedometer - it won’t (legally can’t) show 70 if you were doing 75, so you can’t have thought you were observing the national speed limit.

Also, your reference to four minutes is odd - you would have travelled over 4 miles in that time at that speed, so what is the relevance?


Well isnt the guideline usually 70+ 10% + 2 MPH to allow for situations like this?

The evidence they provided showed that the temporary speed limit of 60 MPH was valid for 3 minutes and 50 seconds before the photos were taken.


--------------------
Police Speeding Fines - Police 1 - speedfighter23 0
TFL traffic contraventions 0 - speedfighter23 2
Kensington and Chelsea 0 parking contraventions - speedfighter23 1
Brighton and Hove parking 0 - speedfighter23 1
Private PCN - Private Parking Solutions Limited 0 - speedfighter23 1

Tyre Puncture Pothole Claims:
0 Buckinghamshire Council - speedfighter23 1
0 TFL - speedfighter23 1

Result Pending:

1 Islington Council tyre puncture claim
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southpaw82
post Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 22:15
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QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 23:12) *
Well isnt the guideline usually 70+ 10% + 2 MPH to allow for situations like this?


That’s the usual guideline for prosecution... do you mean that you weren’t, in fact, observing the national speed limit but rather you were exceeding it knowing that the guideline would mean you would not normally be prosecuted (so long as the limit was 70)?

QUOTE
The evidence they provided showed that the temporary speed limit of 60 MPH was valid for 3 minutes and 50 seconds before the photos were taken.

And...?


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speedfighter23
post Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 22:23
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 22:15) *
QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 23:12) *
Well isnt the guideline usually 70+ 10% + 2 MPH to allow for situations like this?


That’s the usual guideline for prosecution... do you mean that you weren’t, in fact, observing the national speed limit but rather you were exceeding it knowing that the guideline would mean you would not normally be prosecuted (so long as the limit was 70)?

QUOTE
The evidence they provided showed that the temporary speed limit of 60 MPH was valid for 3 minutes and 50 seconds before the photos were taken.

And...?


Is the leeway 60 seconds after the new limit is applied before being prosecuted?

My final argument here is it worth writing the police a letter talking about what happened or not? I am not denying the speed (75) or the fact that I was the driver, but I do believe there should be lenience, that's why I hate cameras so much, they are just black and white.

This post has been edited by speedfighter23: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 22:23


--------------------
Police Speeding Fines - Police 1 - speedfighter23 0
TFL traffic contraventions 0 - speedfighter23 2
Kensington and Chelsea 0 parking contraventions - speedfighter23 1
Brighton and Hove parking 0 - speedfighter23 1
Private PCN - Private Parking Solutions Limited 0 - speedfighter23 1

Tyre Puncture Pothole Claims:
0 Buckinghamshire Council - speedfighter23 1
0 TFL - speedfighter23 1

Result Pending:

1 Islington Council tyre puncture claim
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southpaw82
post Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 22:28
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QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 23:23) *
Is the leeway 60 seconds after the new limit is applied before being prosecuted?


AFAIK, the variable limit comes into force shortly after the limit displayed on the signs changes. Some are as little as 10 seconds. I don’t know what time period applies in your case but I’d be surprised if it was four minutes.

QUOTE
My final argument here is it worth writing the police a letter talking about what happened or not?

Probably not but what have you got to lose?


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speedfighter23
post Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 22:29
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 22:28) *
QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 23:23) *
Is the leeway 60 seconds after the new limit is applied before being prosecuted?


AFAIK, the variable limit comes into force shortly after the limit displayed on the signs changes. Some are as little as 10 seconds. I don’t know what time period applies in your case but I’d be surprised if it was four minutes.

QUOTE
My final argument here is it worth writing the police a letter talking about what happened or not?

Probably not but what have you got to lose?


Will it make it worse? Like will they think I am arrogant for writing such a letter? And should I write the letter now and attach it to my returned NIP form or wait until they 'prosecute' me or not and then write the letter.

This post has been edited by speedfighter23: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 22:30


--------------------
Police Speeding Fines - Police 1 - speedfighter23 0
TFL traffic contraventions 0 - speedfighter23 2
Kensington and Chelsea 0 parking contraventions - speedfighter23 1
Brighton and Hove parking 0 - speedfighter23 1
Private PCN - Private Parking Solutions Limited 0 - speedfighter23 1

Tyre Puncture Pothole Claims:
0 Buckinghamshire Council - speedfighter23 1
0 TFL - speedfighter23 1

Result Pending:

1 Islington Council tyre puncture claim
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Logician
post Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 22:37
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QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 23:23) *
Is the leeway 60 seconds after the new limit is applied before being prosecuted?


Can be as much as 2 minutes. 3minutes 50 seconds is certainly enough time to slow down, asking for leniency on that basis would be hopeless. The distance to the road works or whether there were any roadworks is quite irrelevant as is your opinion of what was safe. You would not be prosecuted for doing anything dangerous, but for exceeding the speed limit.







This post has been edited by Logician: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 22:40


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southpaw82
post Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 22:37
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QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 23:29) *
Will it make it worse? Like will they think I am arrogant for writing such a letter? And should I write the letter now and attach it to my returned NIP form or wait until they 'prosecute' me or not and then write the letter.

There’s always a risk that they will treat it as a challenge, meaning you will not accept a fixed penalty, and will refer the matter to court. You should, therefore, be careful how you word any letter - make it clear that you admit the offence but are merely asking for leniency. You would need to return the letter with your NIP, once they decide to dispose of the matter (by whatever means) they’re unlikely to change their mind.


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speedfighter23
post Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 23:07
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 23:37) *
QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 23:29) *
Will it make it worse? Like will they think I am arrogant for writing such a letter? And should I write the letter now and attach it to my returned NIP form or wait until they 'prosecute' me or not and then write the letter.

There’s always a risk that they will treat it as a challenge, meaning you will not accept a fixed penalty, and will refer the matter to court. You should, therefore, be careful how you word any letter - make it clear that you admit the offence but are merely asking for leniency. You would need to return the letter with your NIP, once they decide to dispose of the matter (by whatever means) they’re unlikely to change their mind.



Thanks for the advice southpaw82, I am sending back the NIP with a leniency letter, and will let you guys know what happens.


--------------------
Police Speeding Fines - Police 1 - speedfighter23 0
TFL traffic contraventions 0 - speedfighter23 2
Kensington and Chelsea 0 parking contraventions - speedfighter23 1
Brighton and Hove parking 0 - speedfighter23 1
Private PCN - Private Parking Solutions Limited 0 - speedfighter23 1

Tyre Puncture Pothole Claims:
0 Buckinghamshire Council - speedfighter23 1
0 TFL - speedfighter23 1

Result Pending:

1 Islington Council tyre puncture claim
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The Slithy Tove
post Tue, 30 Jul 2019 - 07:09
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QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 22:15) *
Got an NIP from Surrey Police within the 14 days for allegedly 75 in a 60 temporary speed limit between M25 J15-J16.

Slightly curious, as J15-16 is entirely within Buckinghamshire, i.e. Thames Valley Police.
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BaggieBoy
post Tue, 30 Jul 2019 - 07:11
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QUOTE (The Slithy Tove @ Tue, 30 Jul 2019 - 08:09) *
QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 22:15) *
Got an NIP from Surrey Police within the 14 days for allegedly 75 in a 60 temporary speed limit between M25 J15-J16.

Slightly curious, as J15-16 is entirely within Buckinghamshire, i.e. Thames Valley Police.

This has been noted before, Surrey Police process offences M25 offences on behalf of other forces.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 30 Jul 2019 - 07:17
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QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 23:37) *
Can be as much as 2 minutes. 3minutes 50 seconds is certainly enough time to slow down

Well as you can't see the sign from over 2 miles away, the 2 mins is rather academic, adding an extra 2 miles would make it an irrelevance.


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speedfighter23
post Tue, 30 Jul 2019 - 07:46
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 30 Jul 2019 - 08:17) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 23:37) *
Can be as much as 2 minutes. 3minutes 50 seconds is certainly enough time to slow down

Well as you can't see the sign from over 2 miles away, the 2 mins is rather academic, adding an extra 2 miles would make it an irrelevance.


Yes i can't stand variable speed limits, it's the easiest way to con a motorist especially on an empty road and you are used to travelling at National Speed Limit. And even worse that Cameras have no warning power, it's just fine or no fine. I'd much rather be pulled over by a radar gun like in the USA or Canada, at least some human touch.

I do not condone speeding, but punishing the motorist for these situations just shows how miserable the war against the motorist has become.


--------------------
Police Speeding Fines - Police 1 - speedfighter23 0
TFL traffic contraventions 0 - speedfighter23 2
Kensington and Chelsea 0 parking contraventions - speedfighter23 1
Brighton and Hove parking 0 - speedfighter23 1
Private PCN - Private Parking Solutions Limited 0 - speedfighter23 1

Tyre Puncture Pothole Claims:
0 Buckinghamshire Council - speedfighter23 1
0 TFL - speedfighter23 1

Result Pending:

1 Islington Council tyre puncture claim
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The Rookie
post Tue, 30 Jul 2019 - 08:01
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That's not what I was saying at all..... They are visible in more than enough time to slow down (most cars can coast from 70 to 60 in less than 200 yards, if you see a red circled sign ahead you know you have to slow down, had you lifted off when you saw them you'd have been fine, not 'fined'.

the point is that any increased delay from anything over about 45 seconds is meaningless as its the distance you can see the sign from that is the limiting factor.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 - 08:03


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
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thisisntme
post Tue, 30 Jul 2019 - 10:43
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QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Tue, 30 Jul 2019 - 08:46) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 30 Jul 2019 - 08:17) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 23:37) *
Can be as much as 2 minutes. 3minutes 50 seconds is certainly enough time to slow down

Well as you can't see the sign from over 2 miles away, the 2 mins is rather academic, adding an extra 2 miles would make it an irrelevance.


Yes i can't stand variable speed limits, it's the easiest way to con a motorist especially on an empty road and you are used to travelling at National Speed Limit. And even worse that Cameras have no warning power, it's just fine or no fine. I'd much rather be pulled over by a radar gun like in the USA or Canada, at least some human touch.

I do not condone speeding, but punishing the motorist for these situations just shows how miserable the war against the motorist has become.


You should move to South Korea. There you have to deaf, blind and stupid to get caught by a camera. They have flashing lights and sirens 200m before a camera on motorways. The result? Everyone drives way above the limit up to that point and then brakes until they get past the camera and then return to their previous illegal speed. So it makes a mockery of enforcing a limit.


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