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'No Permit' ticket from Civil Enforcement Ltd - how to fight please?
EggDogFrog
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 00:51
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Hi so I will try to be brief. I've searched the various posts here and elsewhere but I'm not sure if this case is strong enough?

The driver parked in a small neighbouring town, one passenger knew it better and advised that they could park behind a school. It was evening and dark, they drove down a short narrow passage to the back where one or two cars are parked. Room for maybe ten more cars.

The driver didn't see any signs about not parking and definitely nothing about ANPR cameras or charges. They moved the car after about 2.5hrs. I have just received a PCN on returning to home (was staying elsewhere so after about two weeks). So nearly at the 14 day rate. Like that matters ha!

My question is: do I have a good case?
I haven't been able to revisit the site to take photos but will do asap. This will have to be in the evening as it's a school and I'm not sure what lighting was provided for any signs. I presume this is my only dispute.

There are some good template letters out there like this one which I've found helpful.

This letter
from parkingcowboys adds the issue of the contract to carry out duties by the land owner. Not sure if this helps my case.

Does anyone have any advice or thoughts please?



This post has been edited by EggDogFrog: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 11:12
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post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 00:51
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The Rookie
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 07:01
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First EDIT that post , never divulge driver ID, you deal with this as keeper, describe what 'the driver' did, no I, he, we, the dog etc.

I've asked a Mod' to move this to the private parking forum for you as this isn't a criminal matter.

Lousy and out of date appeals. The parking cowboys template isn't even an appeal and some parking companies don't accept it as such leaving you high and dry.



This post has been edited by The Rookie: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 07:04


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EggDogFrog
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 11:16
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Thanks Rookie, quite right.

The two examples as a whole don't work but there are parts in them that are still relevant I'm sure.
Things have changed a lot since I last looked at this issue so it's definitely got more tricky.


Does anyone have any good links to examples? Is MoneySavingExpert's forum a more active one on this topic, I know Pepipoo is ace but is it less on these 'minor' irritations?

This post has been edited by EggDogFrog: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 11:19
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Sheffield Dave
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 12:13
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The signs are the important thing here, both the content and the readability. So you really need to go threre and inspect/photograph them, First, if you can show they are sparse, small, unlit unreadable etc, then you'd have a fair case that the driver couldn't have been aware they were entering into a contract. Second, if you can show that they were forbidding, e.g. "permit holders only" or "no parking after 5pm", then the driver wasn't offered anything and couldn't have entered into a contract.
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EggDogFrog
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 14:21
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Cheers Dave, got to get there this evening or tomorrow for pics. My main fear is that it could be a new install and more signage could appear anytime. Had that with a previous when I luckily took pics on finding a sticker because they changed the signs a few days later. Dropped it of course!

QUOTE
Second, if you can show that they were forbidding, e.g. "permit holders only" or "no parking after 5pm", then the driver wasn't offered anything and couldn't have entered into a contract.


That's a very interesting point which is new to me. Do you or anyone else know of an example case like this?





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The Rookie
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 14:24
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Let’s see the PCN to see if it complies with PoFA or not, that is always the most important point.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

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EggDogFrog
post Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 01:10
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Sorry for the delay absolutely couldn't get round to it ...

PCN images

Front


Back

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EggDogFrog
post Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 01:34
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Here are some photos of the signage:

Evening - Signage outside, at entrance (on one side of gateway, unlit)



Evening - Internal signage example from distance (unlit)



Evening - Internal signage closeup



Daytime - Signage outside with tape measure for scale



Daytime - Signage inside with tape measure for scale



I think there is an issue with: no lighting, text too small

Hope these images aren't too informative I've tried to keep them from being easy to identify but obviously there's only so much you can do to avoid that.

Ta

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The Rookie
post Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 17:06
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that PCN is a joke, issued under POFA is meaningless and disingenuous when you’ve failed to comply with ANY of the requirements, so no keeper liability.

Easy win at POPLA.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 17:08


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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EggDogFrog
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 15:33
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That's good news

Just received another letter saying - as no reply keeper responsibility etc

I'm sorry but I'm struggling to find on here the correct area for a template letter and some guidance on which Code areas have been breached.
I'd like to get something sent soon which is clear and robust. I don't want to sound lazy it's just time has been against me and the info is had to sift through
Ta
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EggDogFrog
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 15:47
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Just another note the new letter says that it has gone beyond the independent appeal procedure period.

Is that correct?
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 11:48
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Well given we havent seen the letter, who knows

1) Did you appeal to them directly? Of course they are not independent, but you have to appeal to them first
2) If YES then did you then appeal to POPLA within the 28 days the code lasts for, and is really really obvious? If NO well then you are nw playing the ignore game.
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EggDogFrog
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 02:40
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No that's the problem I didn't understand that if you don't appeal within the 28 day deadline it stop you using POPLA.

I think that's ridiculous but if I would have known I would have just sent a brief appeal and request a code, then treat that as the full appeal.

I just struggled to find the time to get the info I wanted for a strong letter.

Unfortunately I think I'm just tempted now to pay it, which is against all my instincts, but I just feel like they will waste time all the way to the courts. They won't turn up but there will always be the chance they will so I'll spend time thinking about and planning the case. Time I don't have. Bad iniit!!
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The Rookie
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 10:32
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Why just pay it?

You have a better than 50:50 chance in court, it costs them a fair amount to take it to court and they will need to be fairly confident given the costs/gain balance.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 14:31
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Don't pay
Not sure why you think not following process would help, and for 99% of parking firms a "strong letter" is as much use as a FRO letter; none.
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EggDogFrog
post Tue, 26 Nov 2019 - 17:48
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 10:32) *
Why just pay it?

You have a better than 50:50 chance in court, it costs them a fair amount to take it to court and they will need to be fairly confident given the costs/gain balance.



Yes it's more been that I'm not sure if I have the time to keep on top of it, ie I haven't studied the process yet but I'm sure there will be deadlines to submit defences to the court at some point and I will have to get that done on time or loose etc
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EggDogFrog
post Tue, 26 Nov 2019 - 18:02
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 14:31) *
Don't pay
Not sure why you think not following process would help, and for 99% of parking firms a "strong letter" is as much use as a FRO letter; none.


Well I just thought if you could show an understanding of how you can defend the case and show strong reasonable grounds it makes sense to focus of targets that are easier. At the moment I may appear oblivious to the process entirely and be presuming that ignoring letters just make them go away, as was the case more in the past etc

BTW thanks for the support

So that leaves me with the decision to pay - which is really against my principles because it only encourages this kind of behaviour and supports their practices
or prepare for how to defend a small claims court case. I have found some examples such as this one http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=119076 which doesn't seem to have a conclusion which is a shame.

What I wonder now is ...

Do I reply to them regardless with a letter saying why I will not pay with an indication of the appeal and maybe even include photo evidence, or just wait?

If I wait how long is this process likely to take as I'm really concerned that I may receive a court letter which I miss by a week or two because I'm away working and can't get the time to follow the court proceedings ! blink.gif ah

I think it's the usual fear but if I continue I need to get it right, I'm sure
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ostell
post Tue, 26 Nov 2019 - 18:07
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Looking at those signs then :

The signage in the car park is of a “forbidding” nature. It is limited to cars displaying a valid permit only and therefore the terms cannot apply to cars without a permit because the signage does not offer an invitation to park on certain terms. The terms are forbidding. This means that there was never a contractual relationship. I refer you to the following case law: PCM-UK v Bull et all B4GF26K6 [2016], UKPC v Masterson B4GF26K6[2016], Horizon Parking v Mr J C5GF17X2 [2016] – In all three of these cases the signage was found to be forbidding and thus only a trespass had occurred and would be a matter for the landowner.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 26 Nov 2019 - 18:20
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Yes, write the, a strong letter indicating the legal reasons why you won’t be paying, that the driver didn’t see any signs as they were not conspicuous or illuminated at night, that the contents is forbidding by nature and a as such the driver couldn’t have entered into a contract with the, and that you as keeper have no liability as they have singularly failed to meet any requirement of PoFA 2012 schedule 4.

They will of course reject it as an appeal but that is no longer your intention anyway, your intention is to put them on notice that you are informed and aware of the legal points and will not be a pushover. CEL are litigious but don’t push informed defendants to a hearing and your aim now is to show them you’ll be one of them so there is no point starting a claim.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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