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Bus Lane PCN Manchester Oxford Street (Whitworth St West to Chepstow St)
273k
post Wed, 14 Mar 2018 - 10:17
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A Bus Lane Penalty Charge Notice has been received for allegedly driving in a bus lane on Oxford Street between Whitworth St West and Chepstow St. Probably occurred when travelling along Whitworth St, and then turning into Oxford St (not sure if approaching westwards or eastwards, driver can't remember but will request video footage if it helps) then travelling along Oxford St before turning right into Portland St.

Seems there have been some successful appeals in this area based on signage, would those arguments be worth applying here?

Pics of letter to follow.
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post Wed, 14 Mar 2018 - 10:17
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273k
post Wed, 14 Mar 2018 - 10:29
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 14 Mar 2018 - 11:18
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yes see delptimaros thread.


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273k
post Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 09:58
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Delperimos thread seems to be an out of time case, or am I being dim?
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 10:07
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QUOTE (273k @ Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 09:58) *
Delperimos thread seems to be an out of time case, or am I being dim?



yes and no. Yes it was an OOT but it was also at that location, his appeal contained a challenge to the siting of the signs. He did not use it. Not because it was not valid but because the council centred there evidence on the signage to the exclusion of any other points, so dropping it wrong footed there defence. That defence, centring on the tribunals endorsement of the signage layout has been discredited by the adjudicators as not valid for a different location


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273k
post Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 10:40
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OK many thanks.

So as I understand it we should appeal on the basis of inadequate signage (fully expecting the council to reject) then appeal to the adjudicator citing the discredited signage in the other location in support.
Was the other location the Nelson St - Hathersage Rd? I will search, but if you know them could you direct me to the thread/details for the other location?
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 12:37
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QUOTE (273k @ Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 10:40) *
OK many thanks.

So as I understand it we should appeal on the basis of inadequate signage (fully expecting the council to reject) then appeal to the adjudicator citing the discredited signage in the other location in support.
Was the other location the Nelson St - Hathersage Rd? I will search, but if you know them could you direct me to the thread/details for the other location?


not quite, the signage is as authorised, but it is placed in such a position so as not to give adequate warning of the restriction. What as been discredited is the use of a different location to support the signage at this location


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273k
post Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 13:27
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OK I think I'm getting it now! So the sign itself is "correct", however the position of the sign doesn't give the driver a chance to register it/do anything as they're already well into the turn by the time they can see it? Has this already been accepted by the adjudicator, or is it likely to be?

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 12:37) *
What as been discredited is the use of a different location to support the signage at this location

Was the different location being used in support of the signage itself, or its position?

This post has been edited by 273k: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 13:27
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 13:31
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QUOTE (273k @ Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 13:27) *
OK I think I'm getting it now! So the sign itself is "correct", however the position of the sign doesn't give the driver a chance to register it/do anything as they're already well into the turn by the time they can see it? Has this already been accepted by the adjudicator, or is it likely to be?

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 12:37) *
What as been discredited is the use of a different location to support the signage at this location

Was the different location being used in support of the signage itself, or its position?



It's the location (Portland st) the adjudicators did a site visit and decided it was sufficient at that location. MCC were using that to argue the adjudicators accepted the signage at oxford rd was ok. The adjudicators asked why when it had no relevance.

I don't know of an adjudication at that particular spot,


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273k
post Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 13:39
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Thanks. Portland street is at the other end of this section of Oxford St. So would not be relevant here either. Seems like the appeal process may involve the adjudicators visiting this location as well? I will draft a first appeal to the council and post here before submitting.

This post has been edited by 273k: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 13:40
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273k
post Fri, 16 Mar 2018 - 09:59
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OK, this is what I've got for the appeal letter:

I submit an appeal against the alleged bus lane contravention (Penalty Charge Notice Number MC-----) on the grounds that this contravention did not occur due to inadequate signage.
When travelling along Whitworth Street there is no signage warning of a bus lane on Oxford Street. The “no motor vehicle” signs at the junction of Whitworth Street and Oxford Street are positioned on Oxford Street and facing perpendicular to the direction of approach. It is only when well into making the turn at the busy intersection that the signs are visible to the motorist. This neither allows the time for the reasonably observant motorist to properly take in the information on the signs, nor the opportunity to safely change course. Likewise, there are no road markings indicating a bus lane. A cycle lane is marked on the road, which it could equally be assumed the “no motor vehicles” signage applies to. The signage in this area is wholly inadequate, failing to give the motorist sufficient information to avoid the bus lane.

Any thoughts/comments?

This post has been edited by 273k: Fri, 16 Mar 2018 - 09:59
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273k
post Mon, 19 Mar 2018 - 10:19
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Looking to submit the appeal today, is the above text ok?
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Lissylou
post Fri, 25 May 2018 - 09:05
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Hi! Just wondering what the outcome of your appeal against your PCN from Whitworth Street to Oxford Road was? Was it rejected? I have received a PCN for the same reason and have just submitted an appeal on the basis of inadequate signage also.

This is what I sent- not sure if it will help but it really is so unclear from the position on Whitworth Street

"I wish to appeal this penalty on the basis that as a visitor to Manchester and following the directions of a sat nav evidence of a bus lane restriction were not clear on the approach to Oxford Road from Whitworth Street (the direction of travel). Having been unaware of any signage on Whitworth Street on the date of the alleged offence I have since researched this following the receipt of the PCN and later checks have shown a map type directional sign with a motor vehicles prohibited sign but I would contend that whilst navigating through a busy city centre only peripheral attention would have been given to this sign with my attention being on the approaching traffic lights/junction, other traffic and pedestrians in the vicinity. The sign on Whitworth Street I am now aware does not indicate a bus lane restriction but can be used with the addition of a plate listing the restriction and exemptions. Even if I had seen the sign on Whitworth Street I would not have been aware of the restriction from this sign alone. The first sign that details the restriction and makes the restricted use of a bus lane (or indicate that it is in fact a bus lane) clear is on Oxford Street itself and obscured by traffic lights until committed to making the left turn from Whitworth Street and entering the restricted zone, the sign is placed and orientated in such a manner that vehicles turning left out of Whitworth Street cannot see this until the commitment to turn has been made and seems to be placed in such a manner that vehicles travelling straight on along Oxford Street can see this not vehicles travelling from Whitworth Street. I therefore feel that the placement of this sign fails under regulation 18 of LATOR 1996 to provide adequate warning of the restriction. To perform a vehicle manouvre to avoid entering this restricted bus lane, following commitment to the left turn from Whitworth Street would be dangerous in a busy city centre. Clearer signs detailing the restriction ON Whitworth Street or road markings would I firmly believe would have mean this alleged offence would have been avoided and I therefore wish to appeal the PCN on the basis of inadequate signage. Especially as visitors to Manchester for a concert unaware of a road layout change - (I believe we had previously used this route prior to the restriction to attend another concert at the same venue on Whitworth Street) and with the fact that the sign is not clearly visible from the traffic lights on Whitworth Street and with permit holders being authorised to use the route it gives a further impression that any bus lane restriction has not yet started."
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