PCN procedires incorrectly followed by CC? Options

[johnojones]

Hello, I received a PCN of which i vehemently refuse to accept due to lack of signage. I have followed the guidelines, but the replies, appeal times, etc from the council warden department do not seem to be follow the procedures.Allow me to be as brief as possible.

On the day of the alleged offence,14th August I logged an appeal direct through the council website and addressed the letter as an informal appeal. i did not supply any photographic or other evidence at this stage, there were no options to upload any files .

I received an email reply on 17th August refusing the appeal on the grounds that although no signs or markings were in the street i parked in, I was in a permit controlled zone, and in short, there is no need for further signage, therefore the charge will not be cancelled. I wish to dispute this.

The discounted charge was extended for 14 days from the date of the reply, but no forms or channels of appeal enclosed.
I awaited the next step which was a NTO. issued on 20th September, but this gave only 14 days to reply ( not 28 ?) and a form giving the options of admitting driver and payment, denying ownership etc, but again, no appeal forms or options to do so.

On the 13th day (3rd October) I visited the council in person explaining that I could not return the form as I would be admitting liability, and of course the only options given was to do this and pay the fine. There was nobody available at that time and I received a phone call as promised the next day. Strangely by the environmental health dept! anyways, the council member insisted that the INFORMAL appeal has been treated as a FORMAL appeal and that I could submit a 2nd and final appeal and said to this just email them and gave me the address. Having been disillusioned with all this, and preferring an official line of appeal,I pondered my options only to now receive a Notice of intended prosecution sent on 11th October, and to pay within 7 days of letter today Thursday 18th otherwise court proceedings will begin. So although my initial appeal was based on lack of signage, I think the council are not following the correct procedures either. please advise, many thanks.

NTO

NIP

Attached File(s)

 appeal.pdf ( 917.15K ) Number of downloads: 82
 kr01800315_1_.pdf ( 138.59K ) Number of downloads: 71

 

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[stamfordman]

They refer to an 'excess charge notice' - this is different from a usual council PCN. Post the original PCN you got.

[PASTMYBEST]

Most of the documents you refer to do not apply to decriminalised enforcement. for proper advice its best if you post all documents and correspondence in chronological order so we can see what's what.


You do not get prosecuted for parking offences if the enforcement is under TMA 2004

[johnojones]

Unable to locate original PCN at this time, it was a fixed penalty notice.here are the other documents. The order is;
1)my informal online appeal.
2)Refusal
3)NTO
4)NTO reverse
5)NIP

many thanks, I need to either pay or appeal today.

having problems uploading .re Upload failed. The file was larger than the available space. i have resized them too. Newbie please excuse
Attachment space used 1.73MB of 1.95MB Max. single upload size: 230.32K

3)
4)
5)

This post has been edited by johnojones: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 12:53

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[stamfordman]

You'd better pay it. You could try calling them and ask if you can just pay £35 as it's clear you didn't know this was a charge notice and not a conventional parking PCN.

[DancingDad]

Jeez
Phone them quick and see what (if anything) they will accept to sort it without going to court.
It has passed beyond the parking contravention and moved onto the failure to furnish driver details, a contravention in its own right and one that could see a couple of hundred quid fine and costs.
This has not necessarily stopped the parking contravention either.
For better advice on dealing with the court side, this may be better in the criminal forum section.
I've asked the mods to consider moving it.

[stamfordman]

They say they'll accept £70 today.

[johnojones]

But i could not forward the driver details, there were no options for an appeal,only to admit and to pay which, according to MSE and CAB, should have.
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2017...ow-your-rights/


and this is from the Environment and Traffic Adjudicators The enforcement process;
Notice of Rejection

The person to whom a Notice of Rejection has been issued has 28 days, beginning with the date of service of that notice, to:

pay the penalty charge; or
appeal to the adjudicator. A Notice of Appeal form should be sent by the enforcement authority with the Notice of Rejection. If this form is not enclosed, the authority should be contacted to obtain one. The enforcement authority should also send you a verification code to enable you to appeal on-line if you prefer.

If you miss the 28 time limit your appeal may still be registered by the adjudicator. When you submit your appeal you must include an explanation for the delay. The adjudicator will then decide whether the appeal should be registered.


This post has been edited by johnojones: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 13:42

[DancingDad]

You had already challenged and failed.
The appeal route on these is via court and that is not something we often recommend on penalties which still operate under criminal system
Often any court appearance is for failing to pay, nothing to do with original parking contravention.
Or as you have found, failing to furnish details.
Very difficult to fight and potentially very expensive

[johnojones]

it seems to be a fixed penalty fine. is this the norm, for a minor parking offence? i thought FPN's are issued by the police not the council?

[johnojones]

Ok, with time running out i had to call my council offices. Firstly, it was a parking charge notice. although fixed penalty notice is used in their correspondence, this and the NIP refer to it as a non-payment of a fine.(odd).
I had 2 choices, to pay the full amount now or to submit a 2nd and final appeal via email - in which case the process will freeze until a final decision is made based on any new evidence submitted. either way, by 5pm today.
i will be contesting on the grounds of lack of signage, rightly or wrongly,as a lifelong citizen of this town in question, I feel strongly about the situation knowing it can so easily be rectified. My choice, I might as well try.

[southpaw82]

Ok, with time running out i had to call my council offices. Firstly, it was a parking charge notice. although fixed penalty notice is used in their correspondence, this and the NIP refer to it as a non-payment of a fine.(odd).

Presumably because Kettering appears still to be under criminal enforcement, not decriminalised. As such, it would be an FPN/ECN as opposed to a PCN.

i will be contesting on the grounds of lack of signage, rightly or wrongly,as a lifelong citizen of this town in question, I feel strongly about the situation knowing it can so easily be rectified. My choice, I might as well try.

Just be aware that will make no difference if you’re prosecuted under s 112 for not naming the driver.

[Mad Mick V]

OP---Pay it today! Stop trying to find reasons for what is an indefensible case. Your brinkmanship will cost you dearly if this gets to Mags Court. The Mags will have one determination --did you pay the fine? No! then a hefty increase in the amount you will have to pay.

Mick

[johnojones]

g

This post has been edited by johnojones: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 23:22

[Neil B]

i will be contesting on the grounds of lack of signage, rightly or wrongly,as a lifelong citizen of this town in question, I feel strongly about the situation knowing it can so easily be rectified. My choice, I might as well try.

No. As others, it is crazy to do so.
Did you pay? I hope so.

Your impending prosecution is nothing at all to do with the parking offence. Rather, simply a failure to furnish details and, probably
to come, failure to pay the fine.
Nothing you've mentioned, from MSE in post #8 has any relevance.

And just to put your mind at rest on this matter you feel so strongly about -
It probably isn't a case of signs being missing; rather, you missing them.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4007327,-...3312!8i6656

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4010782,-...3312!8i6656

[DJ Lexy]

PCN procedures don't apply because you don't have a PCN. You have a much more serious Fixed Penalty Notice. They're rare, but some councils still use them.

If you don't pay, you go to court. You're not on trial for your parking. The judge won't care about missing signs or anything like that. You're on trial for failing to pay a fixed penalty notice. That's a criminal charge. If you are found guilty, you'll get a much bigger fine and you'll pay court costs and the victim surcharge on top - those alone will be more than £70.

Pay it today. If it's past the deadline, phone the council and practically beg them to accept payment.

[cp8759]

PCN procedures don't apply because you don't have a PCN. You have a much more serious Fixed Penalty Notice. They're rare, but some councils still use them.

If you don't pay, you go to court. You're not on trial for your parking. The judge won't care about missing signs or anything like that. You're on trial for failing to pay a fixed penalty notice. That's a criminal charge. If you are found guilty, you'll get a much bigger fine and you'll pay court costs and the victim surcharge on top - those alone will be more than £70.

Pay it today. If it's past the deadline, phone the council and practically beg them to accept payment.

+1, if you'd come here when you first got the ECN we might have been able to look at the signs and advise whether there were ground to defend the allegation, but given the position you're in now paying the £70 would be a bargain. You have no defence to the allegation and if you go to trial this could cost you the better part of a grand.

[johnojones]

chaps please understand . It is confusing because although the letters from the council state an excess charge in one and a fixed penalty charge in another, these are wrong. I received a parking charge notice.This has been confirmed by the local authority on Thursday. The person representing the parking wardens could not explain the mix up, but has a copy of the original issue and it definitely confirmed is a PCN. i started from the online official .gov website here;


I could not appeal as there was no form enclosed with the rejection letter, and neither was there an appeal form in the NTO letter. i have since requested an appeal form but have not been sent one, only an email address .According to MSE etc, it is their duty to send me this information.
if you read my initial informal appeal, i have stated that i am the owner.
Reason(s) for challenging, objecting or asking for reconsideration of the parking fine:

CODE

[/code]I would like to informally appeal the fixed penalty notice issued to the above vehicle on the afternoon of Tuesday 14th of August,[color="#FFFF00"] [u]of which I am the registered keeper and the driver at the time of offence charged wit[/u]h[/color]. The reason for the reconsideration is a plea of innocence due to the fact that I did not realise an offence was being commited due to lack of signage. I drove into the street in question, School lane, and approached an area of the road on the where several spaces were available for parking.I then made a good and honest observation for any signs surrounding the area in question for restricted parking. Examples being- dotted roadside markings for permit holders, signs for limited & no return restrictions on lamposts, kerb markings, single and double yellow lines etc, and was not alerted to any of these and therefore I was unaware of any prohibit I have been charged with. The ticket issued refers to a controlled parking zone, and I am still none the wiser of this restriction. On these grounds I would like to contest the charge and would appreciate a reconsideration of the penalty given.[code]

please tell me, have the procedures been followed correctly or not, because they have messed up if you ask me.[color="#FFFF00"][/color]

[Longtime Lurker]

YOU are the one not following the procedures, which is why you're in danger of racking up a huge fine!

You are currently dealing with an FCN not a PCN. Look at the 4th line of the letter - does it say Fixed Charge Notice or Penalty Charge Notice?

You may also have had a PCN in the past, but you are now well past the stage where you can do anything about that.

The council are not now following the PNC process because this is an FCN NOT A PCN!
MSE's advice about PCNs does not apply to you because this is an FCN NOT A PCN!

As we keep telling you, at this stage you have 2 choices:

1) Pay NOW
or
2) Pay a much bigger fine later, plus court costs, plus victim surcharge. Oh and get a criminal record.

[Neil B]

I can't believe this.
This is an an advice forum. Why ask for advice and then ignore it?
Go back and count the number of long standing members who, emphatically, told you to pay this when you had a chance
and THE CONSEQUENCES OF NOT DOING SO.

Are you suggesting we don't know what we are talking about?

chaps please understand . It is confusing because although the letters from the council state an excess charge in one and a fixed penalty charge in another, these are wrong. I received a parking charge notice.
You received a parking ticket, a fine, under criminal legislation. Ig does not matter what they call it.

it definitely confirmed is a PCN. i started from the online official .gov website here;
Which you've been told does not apply, is irrelevant, etc. and, if you rely on it, will cost you dearly.

Not forgetting your reason for appeal was TOTAL NONSENSE anyway: You missed the signs you claim are missing.

THERE IS NO RECOURSE AT MAGISTRATES COURT; you are being prosecuted, essentially and only, for failing to cooperate.