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alexsyl
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 13:14
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Hello,

Driver came back to the car today to find a parking ticket on the windscreen. Felt that they had only been gone for around 10 minutes whereas the ticket shows 13 minutes.

Driver states they had a conversation with the on site parking attendant who was quite rude and aggressive and that "10 minutes was the f**king law and if they couldnt stick to that then they shouldnt park there".

Is there an appeal to be had here, or as the 10 min grace period has been overstayed is it basically tough? Fine is only £30 though.

On a side note, the signage is fairly visible and there are plenty of them, but the text on it is reaaaaallllllly small and difficult to read unless you're right up close, so unsure if it conforms to parking legislation or not...

Any advice would be appreciated.

Many thanks

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post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 13:14
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Jlc
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 13:21
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I presume ticket issued under contract?

However, the 10 minute grace period you refer to is after an allowed period of parking.

Prior to contract acceptance:

QUOTE
If a driver is parking without your permission, or at
locations where parking is not normally permitted they
must have the chance to read the terms and conditions
before they enter into the ‘parking contract’ with you. If,
having had that opportunity, they decide not to park but
choose to leave the car park, you must provide them with
a reasonable grace period to leave, as they will not be
bound by your parking contract.


If the vehicle is left then it's 'fair game'. (Doesn't have to be 10 minutes)

However, if you have a PCN on the car you may be able to frustrate the keeper liability process. (Appealing as the keeper around day 22/23 - often works well for a POPLA appeal if they don't access the DVLA)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 13:25


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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ManxRed
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 13:24
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Have you got a pic of the sign? So the text is readable?

Is it a Pay & Display or Free but with conditions?

What was the 'contravention'?

Who is the parking company?


--------------------
Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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alexsyl
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 13:30
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Thanks for the replies, can go back and get a pic of the sign later on and can get a copy of the PCN then too.

It's permit parking in an overflow car park - but no visible pay and display machines for visitors (which is odd because its next to the gym at York University and they accept membership from non-Uni members or staff). The parking company is actually the University of York.
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Jlc
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 13:34
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Interesting - they don't appear to be in an ATA (IPC/BPA).


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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ostell
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 13:50
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So the appeal just before 28 days, if that's what is on the PCN, would seem to be the best route as they may have difficulty getting rapid access to DVLA data and if the don't know the driver then it could be difficult for them.
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ManxRed
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 14:46
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If they're not in an ATA then they shouldn't be able to get RK details from the DVLA full stop, unless they're doing this under Trespass, and not parking contraventions.

This post has been edited by ManxRed: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 14:47


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The Rookie
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 15:11
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Are you sure no other company is mentioned on the signage or anywhere on the Notice to driver?


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
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cabbyman
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 19:21
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QUOTE (ManxRed @ Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 15:46) *
If they're not in an ATA then they shouldn't be able to get RK details from the DVLA full stop, unless they're doing this under Trespass, and not parking contraventions.


Depending on the actual site parked, being overflow, it may be subject to our favourite kangaroo court, IAS.

https://www.york.ac.uk/about/departments/su...ing-conditions/


--------------------
Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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ManxRed
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 07:55
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Strange, they're not listed on the IPC accredited operators page under either U for University or Y for York.


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Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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emanresu
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 08:06
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CODE
If they're not in an ATA then they shouldn't be able to get RK details from the DVLA full stop, unless they're doing this under Trespass, and not parking contraventions.


Have you told Aintree Hospitals Trust and Trethowans about that. They and the local courts appear to be mistaken then.
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ManxRed
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 08:16
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QUOTE (emanresu @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 09:06) *
CODE
If they're not in an ATA then they shouldn't be able to get RK details from the DVLA full stop, unless they're doing this under Trespass, and not parking contraventions.


Have you told Aintree Hospitals Trust and Trethowans about that. They and the local courts appear to be mistaken then.


Not sure what impact it would have on the Local Courts. Someone needed to tell the DVLA at the time if Aintree or any agent who was not in an ATA were accessing the DVLA data.

Not that they'd care, but them's the rules.


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Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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Umkomaas
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 09:18
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The University was a member of the IPC (join date July 2015) and was seemingly still a member when this thread was underway on MSE in February this year. Seems they haven't rejoined since?

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...d.php?t=5796342
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Jlc
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 09:22
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They are supposed to be in an ATA if they are operating a private parking operation. May be they will 'outsource' the processing of tickets, use paper DVLA requests or may be nothing if not paid...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Umkomaas
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 09:37
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From the UofY parking section of their website:

Parking T&Cs

https://www.york.ac.uk/media/abouttheuniver...0Conditions.pdf

General parking-related information

https://www.york.ac.uk/about/departments/su...ing-conditions/

Note that they are still sporting an IPC AOS member roundel. Time for an enquiry (complaint) to the IPC? The IPC won't like them using that if their annual subs are outstanding!
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emanresu
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 10:03
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There appears to be an amount of confusion here

1. The DVLA must release RK or more accurately KADOE data to those showing "reasonable cause" so UoY can get it as a landowner with cause.

2. Leeds Uni and a number of hospital trusts do the same without being members of an ATA. ATA's are only for those whose sole profession is designated as one of the industries that must have an ATA. There are other ATA's that are not parking related. Leeds Uni uses Gladstones to take cases to court.

3. As regards the "but them's the rules.", the ICO audits the DVLA and passes them every time as what may be thought of as "the rules" are not. See #1

4. Companies are often members of the IPC but if there is no need to be part of an ATA or do not fall within an ATA remit, they don't need to as long as they are landowners/occupiers with "reasonable cause"
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ManxRed
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 10:37
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QUOTE (emanresu @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 11:03) *
There appears to be an amount of confusion here

1. The DVLA must release RK or more accurately KADOE data to those showing "reasonable cause" so UoY can get it as a landowner with cause.


So, a Trespass issue? Like I originally stated?

If they're running a private parking scheme they need to be an ATA member.

QUOTE
Landowners, private car parking and trespass management companies

Private car parking facilities provide a vital service in towns and cities throughout the land. Many
shops, hotels, pubs and doctors’ surgeries are affected when motorists park their vehicle in breach
of a car park terms and conditions. Properly controlled data release from the DVLA vehicle register
helps these companies operate effectively for the benefit of all motorists.

A motorist who parks a vehicle on private land does so subject to the terms and conditions set out
on the signage. It is considered reasonable for businesses and landowners to seek redress if vehicles
have been parked in breach of the terms and conditions. This could include overstaying the permitted
time period allowed, failure to pay the relevant charge or trespassing on land where parking is
not permitted.

Vehicles could have been inconsiderately parked, for example without entitlement in a space reserved
for disabled motorists or obstruct access for emergency vehicles.

Data is provided by the DVLA to allow landowners or their agents to pursue their legal rights and
to resolve disputes.

To make sure motorists are treated fairly when any parking or trespass charge is pursued, DVLA
will only provide vehicle keeper details where the company is a member of an Accredited Trade
Association (ATA).


ATAs enforce a code of practice which covers many aspects of a car parking operators business, and
while compliance with the code of practice is a key consideration for DVLA when releasing vehicle
keeper data, not all requirements of the code affect reasonable cause.

DVLA will not disclose data to parking or trespass companies who are not members of an ATA and
looks primarily to the ATAs to monitor adherence to the code of practice and explore and address
non-compliance when it arises.


From here:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/go...s-registers.pdf


--------------------
Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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emanresu
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 12:06
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QUOTE
DVLA will not disclose data to parking or trespass companies who are not members of an ATA


We are going to have to disagree on this one. If you interpret what is said literally, as you are supposed to, it infers that landowners cannot access KADOE unless they use one of these specialist companies. It makes a nonsense of property rights as it would derogates any right to pursue a trespasser to a PPC. I doubt it was the intent of parliament.
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ManxRed
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 12:15
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The way I interpret it - and its just my opinion - is that on the one hand you might have a car park accessible to the public, for which there are terms and conditions, and for which a ticket would be slapped on for trespassers or contract breach. If you are offering parking to the public, and issuing and enforcing tickets then you are running a parking scheme, and you need to be in an ATA.

On the other hand, if someone simply parks on your private property and you need to pursue them for damages or removal, then you don't. You're not operating a parking scheme for the benefit of the public. That's just my interpretation of what I think parliament probably intended here.


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emanresu
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 13:12
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Rather than take my word for it, why not do this.

1. Check the DVLA KADOE numbers.
2. See which Uni's are accessing the data
3. Check with ATA they belong to.

Job done.
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